Realistic grants of XP based on RP

Post your ideas and suggestions here
User avatar
Niko Inaru
Lost One
Posts: 283
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 3:24 am

Realistic grants of XP based on RP

Post by Niko Inaru »

I don't wanna sound like I'm complaining or I'm just grinding it out, cause at this point I feel like a lot of you should know I'm not. I've discussed this with many people and most recently Rorik that things kinda move a bit slow given the activity of Students-Knight ratio. Most Students train constantly by themselves whether it be Reading, Meditating, Sparring, using the force, etc....yet they're never commended for it.. They rp a whole lot of their character trying to become better yet rely on a lesson that may have nothing to do with how they're fleshing out their character to grow. So for recently, I've felt students should be granted weekly to monthly Xp grants much like the knights based on performance and Rp. I've seen a lot of people just be judged solely on their level, not their Roleplays. If one was training constantly wouldn't he not grow? Why should lessons that he can't always make it to dictate whether he grows or not... if the person is truly inactive then it would be easy to say they don't deserve these grants, if they're Rping then maybe they deserve that much. I know the servers are monitored daily so it wouldn't be that hard to see who is performing well; pretty much everything gets logged so that can also add into knowing what their doing. Even when people write in the journal that can also add up to how they can receive xp(I don't want it to totally be based on the journal in my opinion cause the journal should describe every In game rp action done...that's not realistic, not everyone is a journalist who feels like writing a super in-depth diary). Now as for how much the students should be granted, I'd let you decide. If it were 1-2 weeks I'd say initiates get 1-3 Padawans 3-5. Which is pretty fair. If monthly Initiates 5-10 Padawans 10-15. It's not like people would go spending these points instantly cause they'd still need to rp taking the class, then training with the power before they could even thing about moving up. Which calls things to be more in the rp perspective, also for people to monitor how students are progressing and make sure we don't have anyone just maxing out his character for dumb reasons( I can say now... none of us would really do that... I see the senior padawans saving up points when they obviously have enough to spend on anything in their list cause RP reasons... even now with the novices, we save up to get things we think our character has earned a right to have. Initiates only really put points down on things they're taught and if they grow to be a senior initiate and have all their core would probably be the only time they'd feel like fleshing out more into growing. PLEASE give me all your honest opinions on this... cause I just feel it would be more realistic for people to grow without the constant aid of a Master....there isn't a lesson everyday, and not everyone has their own Master to regulate a good flow of Xp for growth.

Name: Niko Inaru | Birthdate: 323.3 ABY | Age: 35 | Homeworld: Eshan | Initiated: 333.28 ABY | Noviced: 338.14 ABY

User avatar
Jago Mirax
Lost One
Posts: 468
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2014 5:51 am
Location: Rannon
Contact:

Re: Realistic grants of XP based on RP

Post by Jago Mirax »

Just want to make one small point.

XP isn't relative to character development through roleplay.

| Birthdate: 322.21 ABY | Age: 61 |

User avatar
Niko Inaru
Lost One
Posts: 283
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 3:24 am

Re: Realistic grants of XP based on RP

Post by Niko Inaru »

Jago I know it's not relative, but how does it make sense for some people that have been augmenting certain things with the force to not progress? The xp system makes it a little restrictive, and I'm suggesting there is a way to fix that. I've put Niko in the training room for years, and he's made little progress on his abilities after five years of training. Should he just remain on the same level until finally there is enough xp for his abilities to grow. He as a character, an Echani, is one who wants to perfect himself and his abilities. He trains constantly with himself to try and reach this goal, and when I mean train I don't mean he only spars. He meditates a lot, and it's not an excuse for me to go AFK. I just literally sit there, as if someone where actually meditating. I'm not saying all people that go meditate just do it to go AFK....but that's probably what a lot of people suspect.

Name: Niko Inaru | Birthdate: 323.3 ABY | Age: 35 | Homeworld: Eshan | Initiated: 333.28 ABY | Noviced: 338.14 ABY

User avatar
Evanin Dawnstar
Lost One
Posts: 766
Joined: Sat May 03, 2014 2:43 pm
Location: Balamak.

Re: Realistic grants of XP based on RP

Post by Evanin Dawnstar »

I personally feel it's given too frequently to some students, I won't name names.
But I do feel that too many lesson requests go up from people in a row to wrack in XP and unlock as many abilities as possible, as quickly as can be done.

Same goes for those that get a lot of one-to-one time with certain masters while some are lucky to get any most of the time, it doesn't feel like roleplay is being promoted if it's always private without others involved and always training, more of a 'Here is a few duels in private, take this 2 points of XP and go on your way till next time.'

XP should not be the focus of your time spent here in the community, your desire to give to JEDI should be, as should roleplaying and developing your character.

I think this is a common topic discussed in private.

Apologies if I upset anyone, it wasn't intended but I feel this is an issue that needs sorting. I realize some are busy with real life stuff but that doesn't mean the people that have free time can't spend it with as many as willing to take part in roleplay.
I feel it should be more open for students to take part in things.
| Evanin J. Dawnstar | Dantooine | Forty-Seven |
| Mentors: Bo Iiln/Shaok Panek |
"As one grows older, they realize the futility in trying to avoid responsibility as a child." Image

>> Updated Skin Link <<

User avatar
Niko Inaru
Lost One
Posts: 283
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 3:24 am

Re: Realistic grants of XP based on RP

Post by Niko Inaru »

Evanin, I actually understand where you're coming from completely. This was just my way of fixing it and getting people to stop flooding the lesson request and most of those request never even being answered. A lot of people want their characters to grow not just in personality, but the force and sparring as well. Unfortunately...xp puts a bar on that growth and we can't just rp it out. That's typically a flaw when using an XP based system, character growth starts relying on it in certain aspects. I don't want it to be that way, I want to give people that are in my point of view IGNORED to still be able to grow.

Name: Niko Inaru | Birthdate: 323.3 ABY | Age: 35 | Homeworld: Eshan | Initiated: 333.28 ABY | Noviced: 338.14 ABY

Rorik Vakanlore
Lost One
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 4:32 pm

Re: Realistic grants of XP based on RP

Post by Rorik Vakanlore »

Jago Mirax wrote:Just want to make one small point.

XP isn't relative to character development through roleplay.


Though it is neccessary. If XP isnt really tied to our character growth then why do we use this system? We all know that when a Knight is providing a lesson or simulation, activity spikes. But then disappears on nights when no such thing is offered.

People want xp for their characters growth, because with it we're able to develop our characters into who we want them to be, who we've planned them to be since the moment we thought up their name and their story and who they are and what kind of Jedi they will be.

The majority of our time spent on server is playing out the everyday life/training of our character, not in a class or simulation. Its realistic that their abilities should get stronger inevitably through everyday use and training that a Jedi student would be doing, and not from the hour or two in a specific class/lesson that can occur every few days or once a week, etc.

name_rorik.vakanlore|species_zabrak|age_15|rank_initiate

User avatar
Bo Iiln
Lost One
Posts: 404
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:55 am

Re: Realistic grants of XP based on RP

Post by Bo Iiln »

I'll avoid the long rant due to the fact I'm on my phone.

However. Niko, XP shouldn't matter and it doesn't signify progress. How you RP is what shoes it. Simply saying you RP alone in a training for hours doesn't mean jack if you don't having anything to show for it RP wise. That goes for everyone. Just because you are training constantly ICly doesn't mean you don't have to show it ICly. Show the populace that you've progressed through your entries and role play.

Things become more regular when you get a master. Keep up your role play and keep progressing. When the time comes, you'll get one and things become regularized.

Evanin, masters and students interact with one another to build relationships. Yes, they could interact more with the population at large instead of hiding on the server. I'm guilty of it. But there's a reason. No, we don't want to teach every day. I want to come on and simply interact with enjoyable characters as opposed to being hassled for a lesson. THAT is becoming too common.

XP doesn't matter. Role play. That's all.
Species: Kel Dor | Age: 40's | Initiated: 307 ABY |
Knighted: 325 ABY | Mentor: Raloran Mulloc | Padawan: Evanin Dawnstar_Xel Damar_Maia Rimora_Durindfire
Aslyn Denethorn
Lost One
Posts: 2538
Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 12:07 am
Location: One with the Force

Re: Realistic grants of XP based on RP

Post by Aslyn Denethorn »

I'm going to be blunt here, Niko, but this is getting a little tiresome. I'm aware you have no Master, and thus find things slow going, but the means by which this is constantly something you remind us of does not help improve those circumstances!

Now, as for XP towards 'self-training' - a few points to note here:
  • Firstly, any development an individual makes via 'self-training' is only to reinforce lessons already given, or skills already learned. You don't garner new abilities by training yourself - even Knights and Masters train amongst themselves in order to develop those!
  • As with everyone else, if this means you wish to enhance an existing skill (Force Jump, for example), you must do so with XP earned through the same means as everyone else: attend classes, complete assignments, join simulations. Everyone has these opportunities available to them, and there are many open classes and lessons available to help you towards that end. You may not gain XP as quickly as you feel you should, but it is not because there are no opportunities - rather, it is because you are not taking advantage of those that do exist.
  • Finally, XP is issued by Knights and Masters based upon training observed and achievements recognised. That's the nature of the system - we teach, offer lessons and ask assignments. Completion of this garners XP, not merely to bolster ability, but to reward observed effort. If you come to a lesson and do nothing, expect no XP. If you attend no lessons, expect no XP. It's quite possible to train for hours, days and weeks and gain no XP from it, but bear in mind: that's always been the way. When I was a student, we had lots of time and barely any contact with a Knight or Master - most would receive perhaps one or two lessons a week, impromptu or otherwise, and that was a good week! Much of our time was spent in 'self-training', or working with each other to develop the skills we had, but we didn't require XP for it. Why? Because the reward for it comes in developing those skills in themselves.
  • By that token, every conversation or discussion had should give XP. I had a talk with Dithaal earlier, where he asked me a few questions and I enlightened him. His character 'gained' from this. Does it warrant XP? No. His character may have gained understanding and experience, but what is important is whether he acts upon this, uses it to build and develop himself, and whether he applies that in simulation, lesson or mission. That is where XP comes from - and, to be blunt, it is the minimal effort I would expect of any RPer. We're here to RP. It's not about the XP.

You put Niko in the training room for years...but do you attend classes? Do you seek out lessons appropriate to your level? To be honest, aside from the few conversations we observe (many of which are dedicated to lamenting your existing state as a Novice, or that you seek lessons), more often than not, you spend your time sparring or standing around watching others do so, hoping for an opportunity to join in.

99.9% of students, Initiate, Novice or Padawan grow their skills over time because of the manner in which they participate with the clan. And every single person currently within JEDI had experienced it the same way: we RP, we talk, we discuss, we train. But XP comes from lessons, simulations and missions. Why? Because that's when we see what your training has achieved - it's your moment of breakthrough. If you want your skills to advance in terms of ability levels (and not in actual terms, such as learning to truly use what you've got!), then do as the rest are required to do. Nobody is just given XP around here, and RP alone does not grant it.

If it did, we'd all be Level 24 Jedi Masters. And we'd not be a true RP clan - when RP = XP, you're doing something wrong. RP is there because that's what we're here for. XP is a bonus derived from RPing under particular circumstances, where everyone puts in effort together for a common purpose (i.e a lesson, sim or mission). We, the Masters, put in effort by devising, setting up and executing them, you put in effort by participating well. That's when XP is warranted. At no other time should it be so.
User avatar
Niko Inaru
Lost One
Posts: 283
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 3:24 am

Re: Realistic grants of XP based on RP

Post by Niko Inaru »

Aslyn Denethorn wrote:I'm going to be blunt here, Niko, but this is getting a little tiresome. I'm aware you have no Master

See, I knew if I posted this, that's immediately what it would get pointed to. I can tell you right now, I don't care about not having a Master, I can Rp at any level, I don't care, but my Character Niko has an agenda to get better, and he can do that by himself, He views himself as an Echani trying to be a Jedi and understand this way of training the best he can. So he does what he'd regularly do and run drills. He invites people to spar with him, he helps out his friends. People defend Niko IRP where it counts cause he never really viewed his actions in the light they do. BUT NO, the only reason I want XP if cause I'm and XP hog. I was never alone in this, I really do talk to people about it that open this up. I don't search for people to just discuss the topic of XP we initially talk about realism. Realistically why can't someone grow when they run drills daily whether they be alone or with friends? We all still do it regardless if we have a Master or not cause it makes sense to RP. Why would someone need to be in the constant eye of others to grow when we're spied on every day. Niko can write in his Journal all day about doing the same thing and wanting to get better, but that's not good rp... he had an Epiphany and posted it out, that should pretty much be enough and end it there rather than him saying. "Day 1 of new training, I sparred with so and so... it was fun, I used the force on some holograms etc...." and then repeat that over for the rest of the time being. That's not Rp, and that's not how I wanted my Character Niko to be.

Name: Niko Inaru | Birthdate: 323.3 ABY | Age: 35 | Homeworld: Eshan | Initiated: 333.28 ABY | Noviced: 338.14 ABY

Zuri Lyn
Lost One
Posts: 403
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2011 7:47 pm

Re: Realistic grants of XP based on RP

Post by Zuri Lyn »

Took me enough time to finish my own post for many others to add to the conversation. I might be repeating a little of what Aslyn and Bo wrote, but that only underlines our agreement :)

It's not because your character does not receive XP for the training he's doing that's he's not progressing.

When someone on the server roleplays learning or training, everyone else can see this. They are developing their character, not through xp, but roleplay. That there was no XP attached to the roleplay does not (should not) change how others view the training that character did. Thus, it's wrong to assume a character's progression is limited because they don't receive XP. And in the same way, it's not because someone received XP I'll consider their character as having suddenly progressed.

To talk about receiving XP it's also important to know what XP is for. In terms of game mechanics, XP adds hp/fp and allows "acquiring" Force Powers. So, looking at some specific examples you mentioned "Reading, Meditating, Sparring, using the force", they don't really relate to XP. Reading and having your character talk of his lectures can be interesting roleplay, but it shouldn't lead to him having more hp/fp and Force Powers. And if you're often sparring, you will get better at sparring, there's no need for XP attached when you know you're sparring better, your character is already progressing.

To justify simply why the current system has its perks, it's that it encourages interaction between students and mentors. Training on your own can be interesting if leads to interesting role play with others. So, to make personal training work with our current system, you simply roleplay your training and at an appropriate time talk about your training with a mentor, asking them to verify you're doing things right if you want. To use a personal example, Zuri always asks students what they've been training recently, how well they're doing. He wouldn't mind testing students or verifying their progress.

As conclusion, I'd simply remind the whole JEDI experience is about roleplaying with others, having our own character progress while interacting with others, others impacting on our own character. I don't feel XP grants promote interaction as the current system does, so prefer the current system.
Aslyn Denethorn
Lost One
Posts: 2538
Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 12:07 am
Location: One with the Force

Re: Realistic grants of XP based on RP

Post by Aslyn Denethorn »

I'll add a final point: over a decade of JEDI members have RPed, student and Knight, using this system. Everyone here knew the score when they joined (because we tell them), and experience it moment by moment while they remain. And it works - it emphasises that one's development as a Jedi stems not purely through XP and Force abilities, but through quality RP and character development completed absent any physical reward. You won't be Knighted because of XP, you won't be Mastered because of XP, and you won't touch the Council because of XP. It is, as it should be, the thing of least value within the Community, and given low importance because of that. So, here's my question:

If it's good enough for us, why is it not so for you?
User avatar
Zander-Bo Umra
Lost One
Posts: 666
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:11 am

Re: Realistic grants of XP based on RP

Post by Zander-Bo Umra »

Aslyn Denethorn wrote:I'll add a final point: over a decade of JEDI members have RPed, student and Knight, using this system. Everyone here knew the score when they joined (because we tell them), and experience it moment by moment while they remain. And it works - it emphasises that one's development as a Jedi stems not purely through XP and Force abilities, but through quality RP and character development completed absent any physical reward. You won't be Knighted because of XP, you won't be Mastered because of XP, and you won't touch the Council because of XP. It is, as it should be, the thing of least value within the Community, and given low importance because of that. So, here's my question:

If it's good enough for us, why is it not so for you?
IE. Don't fix what was never deemed broken.

I recall a certain character of my own with over 400 XP and because of too much focus on stuff that wasn't important. (IE. time spent roleplaying, lessons followed, all that stuff). The best growth is on your character, not on the fancy jumps you can do.

Growth will come. If you have any issues, approach a Councillor instead of throwing something like this into the community and getting defensive when called out.
| Species: Human | Homeworld: Coruscant | Born: 318.16 | Initiated: 324.27 | Apprenticed: 326.13, 329.08 | Knighted: 338.17 | Mentors: K. Orion, A. Silaan

"The Code is not a script, it's a guide." - Zander-Bo Umra, 329.30 ABY

"May my body guide my blade, my mind harness its core, the Force guide my feet." - Zander-Bo Umra, 331.29

Image
User avatar
Niko Inaru
Lost One
Posts: 283
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 3:24 am

Re: Realistic grants of XP based on RP

Post by Niko Inaru »

This isn't about being Knighted, getting a Master, any of that. This is only about the growth in the ability of a character; that's all this is about. You'd think that the Arc's too would push us in a new light. Like War is happening, a Jedi Master is gone and training i still the same. I don't wanna say it's slow... and I know Jedi aren't soldiers... but they captured one of our own and I see two scenario's happening. One we get invaded before we can move or two we move and plan on rescuing him. In which only the Jedi Knights and up will be ready for while running the risk of just losing more. So in the end I guess that's just how it's written out as I'm being told. If you guys just wanna keep things the same pace, Then I give up. I won't say anything anymore... a lot of you guys tell me xp doesn't matter but, you're already fully fleshed out, why would it matter to you. My Character right now is just gonna be doing the same thing for a while. Talking to people, taking lessons, training; whatever happens cause of this ARK I don't know... but I was told that invasions can occur and stuff can get very real.



If it's really how it is, then I'm done and I'll leave the system as it is. No need to even worry about it from here on out; just know! I wasn't alone in my thoughts, I'm just all for realism.

Name: Niko Inaru | Birthdate: 323.3 ABY | Age: 35 | Homeworld: Eshan | Initiated: 333.28 ABY | Noviced: 338.14 ABY

User avatar
Evanin Dawnstar
Lost One
Posts: 766
Joined: Sat May 03, 2014 2:43 pm
Location: Balamak.

Re: Realistic grants of XP based on RP

Post by Evanin Dawnstar »

Ever since I first became a Padawan, Bo made it very clear to me: Detail your learning experiences in lessons, your actions as you practice new things and you'll be rewarded. I never cared for the reward, the challenge is what made me strive to use detail in these instances when possible.

One reason for exploring the detailed method is it gives you an idea for the future on how to pass on the experience to another by describing it how it was for you, a good way to teach.
Another is, that sense of accomplishment. "I put in a wall of text describing what I was doing, how I was doing it and what the end result was. I don't feel I wasted my time as I learned more about it by doing it." Even if initially I failed by choice it presented the opportunity to explore and try new routes.

Honestly just saying ::Closes his eyes, breathes and suddenly finds himself moving the crate:: sounds dull and it drives me crazy if someone acts lazy when learning new stuff.
You don't get something for nothing, otherwise I'd have unlocked more abilities earlier, for the moment I am satisfied with working on what I have at my disposal, sure the XP is nice as it means I can unlock the next tier but it's not a requirement, I can always use ::Words which in some cases, can speak louder than the action would have::.

In response to the ARC, the chances of an invasion are down entirely to the Council and story team, we'd have a full heads up ahead of time I would think as with any other mission. As to fighting? I'd sooner lock all the younger students away safely than let them jump at invading sith, not even I would willingly jump in and fight in this instance. In the event of an invasion normally the younger inexperienced students would be moved away from the Temple I would think or protected by the most experienced Knights/Masters and Senior Padawans, kept as far from the invaders as possible.
| Evanin J. Dawnstar | Dantooine | Forty-Seven |
| Mentors: Bo Iiln/Shaok Panek |
"As one grows older, they realize the futility in trying to avoid responsibility as a child." Image

>> Updated Skin Link <<

User avatar
Delmi N'jork
Jedi Master
Posts: 3925
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 11:53 pm
Location: Duneeden
Contact:

Re: Realistic grants of XP based on RP

Post by Delmi N'jork »

If you're focusing on xp or putting so much importance on it, you're doing it wrong.

There's a lot of things you can do as far character development and growth with absolutely no xp at all.

*Read "you" as any member in this community.
Image
|Age_187|Height_7'3|Weight_427lb|Race_Nelvaan|Mentor_Maloush Paroveid|Padawans_Aurien Uriah_Amoné Fayden_Tergos Zemnos_Esth Me'sku_Virtuo Alegan_Tweek Etimau_Dithaal_Sirius Invictus_Aqua Sol_Ina'eo'nekri
Locked