Abstract: stat system that which changes modifiers to rpdice rolls.
For the sake of communicating the idea, I've come up with some VERY rough names and numbers to try and convey the idea, so everything's subject to change.
Each level a character is awarded one Attribute Point (AP) with a maximum of 25 AP. AP can be spent on one of five Attributes, each with an ascending cost of one (rank 1 costs 1AP, rank 3 costs 3AP, etc.), maxing out at rank 5.
Attributes provide bonuses to rpdice checks. When I tried to figure out what the basis of these five skills could be, I turned to the Departments for inspiration. LSAT, FMAT, and the Aces seemed to be represented through their current mechanics well enough, but are fast enough that they don't lend themselves to this style of RP. What about the other Departments? That leaves us with Security, Artisan, Archives, Medical, and Diplomacy.
Work with me here, but if I were to loosely translate each of those to an Attribute or ‘class’ name (super open to suggestions here)…
Security = Investigator (truthseeking and fact-finding)
Artisan = Craftsman (engineering and invention)
Archives = Archivist (Jedi and Force lore)
Medical = Healer (Life and planet sciences)
Diplomacy = Diplomat (alien and cultural knowledge)
Let's look at this from an execution standpoint. What would this look like in-game?
A character encounters a terminal on a mission. This is an object tied to an NPC script. A character with points in Guard or Artisan may have the dialogue option to try to bypass the access codes (Guard) or slice the terminal (Craftsman). This fires off an rpdice roll that adds that stat's value to try and hit a target goal. A 'win' unlocks the terminal/opens the gate, a 'fail' sounds alarms or spawns turrets.
A group of characters encounter an artifact on an archeology mission. Mission director creates an rpdice roll-call that's considering the Archivist stat, and the target goal. (e.g. /rpcheck 21 (goal) arch (stat) 30 (length of poll)). This would post an rpnotify along the lines of 'Your skills as a %variable% are being tested…', players that do the /rpcheck (or w/e command) in response have their dice rolled, Attributes tallied, and results reported to the Admins/Director automatically (optionally display winner publically via rpnotify?).
Advanced combinations. Dialogue options could be unlocked based on which skills or combinations of skill levels a character has. Maybe the bartender droid will only tell the Archivist/Diplomat about the rumors he's heard. Maybe a rank 4 Artisan may not be as suited to disarming a chemical bomb as the rank 3/3 Artisan/Healer? There's lots of possibilities!
Through the various discussions I’ve had about this, we’ve covered the idea that this could be used for non-force skill measurement. This can be used to put a measurable stat on what a character 'knows', particularly as it relates to their training in that field. Additionally, I think that this would make it simpler for newer players to define and portray their characters.
I think it would be reasonable to say that a level 1 character who's also a rank 1 Diplomat would also know an additional language (or two?). A new character who's bio/background included a transfer from another Praxeum might pick up their first level in Archivist, to account for their burgeoning familiarity with the Jedi ways. On the opposite end of the spectrum, a trained Jedi Knight may well be expected to have advanced knowledge of an alien culture's ways and traditions (rank 3-4 Diplomat)
This is not to replace any of the currently existing modifiers that people use in RP interactions, rather as an framework to help streamline some general interactions. At the end of the day, it’s up to the person managing the RP to determine whether or not a character should receive a bonus to their chances on a roll or with a particular skill.
I've bounced this idea around with a few folks and I appreciate all the feedback I've gotten so far. Thanks for reading!
Instead of 1 AP per level with 25 AP and 5-level classes, 1 AP every 5th level (5 AP total) with 3-level classes and purchase cost of 1. Roll bonuses can be adjusted.
But, as a seasoned player, I have come to understand that needless complexity can and will drive away many players. Players who while loving RP also hate dice rolls and restricting systems, players who can create fantastic stories and worlds but when forced to conform a character sheet lose all inspiration.
Easy example, many groups who have come to love and immerse themselves in RPGs like Vampire or Werewolf, and who can't wait to do Live or Forum RP. Barely any rolls, just active engagement and a few props and judges to do the ugly mechanical stuff behind the scenes.
And, to be honest, that is JEDI's magic. You want to play a Jedi, just install the game and get in with natural RP. If a day is extremely busy, I can still hop in for 20 minutes here and there, and still participate in RP. No system I have to learn (aside from color codes, which honestly become second nature after a few days), no complicated progress I have to keep in mind.
It's not without disadvantages of course. The above system requires far stricter moderation, and I am not only talking about missions. There are instances of Mary Sues in the community, characters who suddenly display abilities just because they trained behind the scenes. Also in missions you have to have a living person for each role. (Or for two roles, if they can dual). It is also a system that to people like me, feels a bit too free-form progression wise.
But to introduce a complex DnD skill system is to take it to the other side. It's almost the polar opposite. And if moderation is now an issue for Knights, just think the extra amount of work needed to keep those lists updated, knights will also have to be experienced with Target Numbers and difficulty modifiers. And while they seem child's play to me, that is not something I would like to enforce on others players.
That said, the idea has many advantages if implemented on a simpler form. I suggest the following:
1. Drop all RP skills from table. No diplomacy, intimidate, bluff or persuasion. Sorry, this is Live RP and I won't suspend my disbelief when a person says "I try to persuade him" and rolls, instead of talking. This is a big NO NO for me, and personally, non negotiable. It'll be a game breaker if implemented. Even in tabletop, when a players said I try to intimidate him, I was "Tell me what you say and do, and then roll.".
2. No stat bonuses or penalties. Keep the system abstract. You have 2 dots, you are capable. End of line. As it is now, it's up to the directing knight to judge if you succeed or not. If he wants to use dice, as it happens sometimes, it's up to him. Don't force it. If a player is respectful to his skills and RP, then rolls will be rare. If people want to abuse the system, then it will turn into a roll fest.
3. Keep the progression slow. If we want, 1 dot from background to a mundane skill and only for exceptional cases. Then, Initiates max 1 dot, Padawans max 2, Knights max 4, Masters full 5. Then, a dot per 3 or 4 levels at most. In real life, it takes years to Master a skill. The Jedi are a cut above the rest, so they might do it in their adulthood, and sooner, but no Padawans with extraordinary skills. People might think it is a small and restricted progress, but we are Jedi. Most of our lives is spent on Force training and meditation, we cannot be masters of all skills. We either Master a few extra skills (1-3) or are jack of all trades.
4. To gain a dot, a player has to show both ingame and journal progression. Show some progress, show failures, show frustration. Then he can ask for a Knight (if he is masterless/padawan) or his Master to "test" his knowledge. The knight will have to check the above, and then grant the dot if the player has shown promise. For Knights, well they are moderators in a way, so it will have be based on honor. Since these templates will also be public, I can assume that there will not be any kind of cheating.
5. Finally, keep this template system strictly advisory. Used by Knights as an easy way to get a general idea of the player, and react accordingly during missions. Nothing more or else.
If this skill system becomes enforced, RP will suffer. this system *WILL* be abused. People will base their reaction on rolls, and will not bother RPing. There are people already who do not respect RP context (I remember students dropping a knight constantly, despite said Knight being a sparring instructor. If it happened once, it is a wonderful RP opportunity for the padawan and knight to realize that death is but a mistake away. But constantly, that was OOC combat in prime RP hours).
So, time for an example.
We have a template for a hypothetical, Jedi Knight Alpha:
He is level 18. He has 1 dot by creation, and (assuming 1/ 2 level), 1 for 2, 1 for 4 1 for 6,1 for 8, 1 for 10, 1 for 12, 1 for 15, 1 for 16, and 1 for 18. Total, 10 dots.
Now, our Knight is an expert in Engineering. He probably knows several aspects, and we can suspend our disbelief and accept he can repair engines and lightsabers at the same time proficiently.
He is also quite well versed in theoretical Science. Now I call it science, but it can be broken down to Medical Knowledge, Physics, Geology, History. Anything theoretical. He can hold his ground in discussions, and given time, he can research almost any subject close to his specialization. However, he is not as versatile in his fields as he is in Engineering.
At the same time, he dabbles a bit in hacking. He can break a password given time, and knows a bit about encryption. But in a dangerous situation, his chances are slim to none. He would require extensive work to succeed in a very complicated task, and has a change to fail.
His knowledge of piloting is basic. He can lift, and land a vehicle. And that is pretty much it. He can't take part in combat, and if he is in a dangerous situation, just pray the Force guides him. His knowledge is so limited, he cannot even teach the subject.
Example 2: Padawan Beta. He is level 7. He has 4 dots as per example above. His max rank is 2.
Culture Lore: 2
First Aid: 1
As per above, the Padawan is decent in his cultural knowlege, and has a basic understanding of botany and first aid. Nothing more.
Eventually, he takes a level and has another skill to add. Say, he decides he wants to progress in Piloting. I insist on the word progressing, and I purposefully don't use the usual "put a dot in".
The Padawan approaches Knight Delta, a Pilot Instructor, and tells him "Master, can you assess my piloting skill up to now?"
The Master will put a time and hour for the test, and in the meanwhile, he will ask other knights if the Padawan has taken part in lessons or engaged RP-wise in training sessions for the subject. At the same time, he checks the player journal for lessons *AND* posts on the subject.
When the time of the test comes, the Knight RPs the test however he wants. It is not that important. What is important is that the Knight has done his work, and has already decided if the Padawan has put the required amounts of work. Based on that, he passes or fails the Padawan, and writes a journal entry for him that explains his reasoning (so as to avoid accusations of favoritisms). Only after he passes does the template get updated. If he fails, he has to put the required amount of work ingame and in journal, before he tries again a reasonable amount of time later (at least 2-3 circles later).
Finally, I also believe the system should remain more of a forums assisting tool, and not be incorporated in the game. After all, we still want it to remain base compatible.
|Species: Cathar |Homeworld: Vlemoth Port | Rank: Jedi Knight |Initiated: 372.16 | Apprenticed: 373.02 |Knighted: 390.12| Mentors: Zakarie Di'Vosk, Drax | Apprentice: Xintr Wolfe | Specialisations: Sage, Astronomer, Artisan|
- Sirius Invictus
- Jedi Knight | High Councilor
- Posts: 654
- Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:39 am
- Location: Rannon Praxeum
There is a TL;DR section at the bottom
In a place where the spontaneity and authenticity is key to how real the atmopshere is, one should tread lightly.
First of all, and because I honestly think it to be a disclaimer, I too am a fan of complicated systems. Of elaborate mechanics that allow people to expand the medium on which they operate to its maximum and fullest potential. But, more often than not, these mediums are purely based on imagination. People around a fire, a table or through skype, trying to bring to life a world, its contents, physics, limitations and the sense of magic if it exists.
What is ::JEDI:: though? What are its limitations? What are its physics? What constitutes as 'bringing the world to life'?
The limitations, many have said and are still saying, are the ones of the engine. That everything is feasible but the engine, or its base compatibility, or the lack of us using mechanisms that are able to be used in the base game itself is something that is holding us back and that it should be adressed.
To that I say just... No.
There are simply no limitations. The only 'wall' we encounter? The lack of creativity that might occur by one or by few or by many at times. And this won't be solved by extra elaborate mechanics, scripted NPC dialogues to 'enrich' the environment (they would only make it more static, feeling like you stumbled into Baldur's Gate or any other game of that kind where NPCs, items and the world have specific options to present you with).
Is it better to follow Example A Cal posed? Or is it better to have the player attempt something in ::RP:: and explain his intentions and the director to reply to him via rpnotify what they see/understand based on their approach? Wouldn't the former option *limit* the actions and the paths the player is *able to take*? By neutering him to conform to the path laid out before him in X specific ways?
Wouldn't it be better instead of Example B, to have the characters discuss what they might remember, feel, think and reach a conclusion, possibly in the very same way one would approach Example A ideally, instead of having them go "Roll this, okay you know it"? Are the Knights+ unable to call the shots of their own missions or events? Are they unaware of the general inclination and preferred fields of study of the Students they bring along? Should chance be valued more than the story one writes? Are they unable to truly shape that story around the player and make it 'non scripted' but rather react to the players at hand? Do we truly want to reward information, success or anything of the sort, due to the Rolling of Dice rather than our ::RP::? Cause if we do that, first you get people that rely on the Rolling Dice aspect, never evolving truly their RP due to the fact that they can simply 'gather the points needed' and roll with their own modifiers and second, stated just now, you get people that have *yet another* thing to 'farm'. Now, instead of XP farming, you would get people level farming, in order to get that precious skill point they want and so on.
In Example C, the only thing I will say is that we trust the whole Knight+ body to call the shots of what one knows and one doesn't. The student journals are available to all, and one can spend 15 minutes of their lives and go through what that person has chosen as a path, maybe even delve a bit further (as they probably would IC) and get an even more specific sense of who attends their mission. Why on earth would we rely on an NPC or a task that makes checks of an ingame nature in order to determine outcomes? Why keep playing JEDI if we are to do that and not simply go and buy any other RPG with its own open(-ish) world and linear or non-linear (but still scripted) set of quests and choices? If people are able to script dialogue paths and skill checks, they can very well utilize a second client (it is literally a copy-paste of your gamedata folder) and stay in spectator, voicing everything and notifying everyone. Even without RPnotify but with ::RP::.
If people crave such a system, if they truly think it will help more than actually striving towards better moderation, and having people keep a better track of each other's progress, reading their journals (cause that can be done, even selectively if someone attempts to see if someone knows something specifically, with the 'search' function the threads have), and in general have a good sense of where the people they moderate are more or less treading upon; attempt Tabletop RP. And play by the book, you are going to love it. But be prepared for the lack of the specific kind immersion JEDI is able to offer. JEDI has no relation to tabletop RP. Nor should it have. It's reducing to something else. Or at least, making it something completely different.
The workaround Narael proposed is something that I consider to be way different from the original proposal. And a great improvement of it by far. Especially due to the fact that it does not delve *at-all* with ingame mechanics, and the whole process is like 'note-keeping' for the Knights to be able to either settle a dispute or quickly get a sense of what a character might or might not be able to do. But, again, in my eyes, it's as OOC in nature as the name tags over our heads are ingame. It denotes something the players should know, more than the characters.
Anything more than that will make the game convoluted and complex only in order to make it so. We have people calling the shots because they have supposedly proved themselves able to be objective and resourceful to handle such situations. Rolls or not. Rolls are to be used for contested things, or things that one might have no clue or not at all whether they are possible, but there could be a chance. They have a specific function, and a specific role. And truth be told, if we had a bigger reservoir of common sense, we wouldn't even need those. But as it is, and with the attention it gets/or does not get, it's of no harm.
People have imagination. To roll dice, or sum up a character's worth into a piece of paper with numbers, is having them wear blinkers and focus on those things in two ways:
1. Thinking that's only what they can do.
2. Having them try to fill that list.
Putting extra mechanics is making things for the admins harder, more complex; as it is overwhelming the players. And there is no need for that at all. Especially since it does nothing to actually assist the storytelling in any way.
Keeping a list of things people are good/bad at, that is of OOC nature for people to look briefly and make better more objective judgements IC, is another thing altogether. And I would be intrigued in that indeed, supposing it is actually handled with extra care.
Primary focus should be given to better moderation and people caring about other characters; at least to the point of knowing about them, who they are, and what they do via their journal. Supposing there is content there, which is advisable. That should already help immensely with a lot of things if done. One can hope.
|| Name: Sirius Invictus || Species: Human || Age: 30 || Homeworld: Vlemoth Port || Birth: 360.09 ABY || Initiation: 372.10 ABY || Apprenticed: 373.09 ABY || Knighted: 384.30 ABY || Mentor: Delmi N'jork || Apprentice: Kiara O'ren ||
A recent example I can feel about this is a class a few months back about seeing in the dark. Your characters entire success on this hinged on a roll of the dice. Any skill your character had within this area, naturally, was null and void because everything literally hinged on this roll of the dice. If you rolled bad, you failed. Some people almost made it to the end without making any progress in this because everything relied on a roll of the dice. You couldn't really RP out any sort of progression, because dice said no.
Not to mention this would put MORE emphasis on levels, which I feel is a bad thing. With the way things are now, with no RP Skills, if I have to go away for a few months I can say Ty went off to study medical things somewhere. And I can apply this instantly when I come back.
But if we were to put in a system that relies even more on RP dice and abilities tied to your level, there's no progress like this. I can say I do this, sure, but the mechanic dices will still be limited heavily.
Human from Corellia
Born 364.20 (25)
Initiated on Ossus
Transfered to Rannon on 369.29
Padawan to Iffo Rav'i on 372.07, Masterless on 377.30
Padawan to Teynara Jeralyr on 378.14, Masterless on 381.20
So, I don't think there's a useful use case of that extension, in whatever form it takes.
Birthday: 340.03 ABY
Initiation: 351.13 ABY
Apprenticed: 352.11 ABY, 372.17 ABY
Languages: Shyriiwook, Xaczik and Basic (Understands) Thykarann and Huttese
Rank: Jedi Knight
Mentor(s): Jao Ryn, Zechs Demming
Padawan(s):Aranna Vaan, Serbithar Muunen
Not only that but also a list of 'loot', things you could find in roleplay and keep. But again, such was not a system that was widely used; but by... six of us, essentially and we wouldn't usually force anyone else to use it. Although said system died rather quickly as it was more of a personal addon to our roleplay, I will say that it could be interesting but also happened to change the overall experience.
We have roleplayed whole missions with that dice system, whilst keeping JKA's fast pace. If anyone's interested in at least taking a look, I can share our old notes.
But, moving on to my opinion...
I will agree, though, that I am not too inclined to see a Dice/Stats system being generalized on JEDI as it is. I do enjoy the original idea, but also agree with most of the points suggested above and overall I believe that said systems should not strictly walk by the RP and that we should stay freeform but some of the suggested elements above could simply be used in certain circumstances and events as a personal preference.
Species_Human | Mentor_Alexandria Xy'mo | Padawan_Estelwen Rha
As Bertil mentioned, unlike most of those who replied to this thread, I've been extensively using rpdice in my personal RP, even developing my own ways of balancing out stuff. I am not here to advocate the rpdice system, as it is something that I've always kept personal, and that I applied only in specific situations with few people who wanted to use it.
Those of you who discussed about "rpdice" with me know my opinion, but I will repeat myself for those with whom I haven't had the chance to talk to: I feel that a rpdice system is not something that can be forced in JEDI as a whole. Let everyone develop their own ways of roleplaying, relying on whatever system offers the best result for their own purpose.
It is very important for you all to keep in mind that JKA is extremely limiting in many scenarios. I feel that each admin/mission-director has found his/her personal way to overcome the JKA engine limitations, be it text-by-text RP with faded screen, rpdicing stuff, or something else. In the end, all that matters is that the RP is fun and enjoyable for those involved.
If you haven't faced the struggle of setting up a scenario that JKA won't allow you to render properly, then do not doubt that earlier or later you will, and then you will start brainstorming yourself on how such limitations can be overcome.
Hence my bottom line is this: keep JEDI flexible and allow there to be more ways to overcome JKA limitations, observing with interest each propose, but without forcing one system over another when it comes to set up missions/outings/scenarios.
To anyone trying to make the argument that we're more action oriented, yeah, but that's only for when we're not doing anything based on Emotion. Every time we emote we slow down, in exactly the same pace as DnD. So using Dice, Modifiers, things like that can make things like using the force to throw something at someone more fair than perhaps accidentally power gaming.
Of course yes, plot can override this, but it does the same for DnD. It's not to say that the Dice will replace every and all actions we do, but its a nifty system to have on board especially for fairness.
An example would be say you have a rock thrown at you, and you need to score above a 10 on your telekinesis roll or athletics roll to dodge it.
Based on your character sheet will allow you to rp your character. Obviously someone more Force oriented will have bonuses on Force rolls and just catch the rock or throw it back. Duelist will dodge, but still have the chance to do things similar.
|Name: Aiden Kezeron||Age: 46||Birthdate:341.04 |
|Homeplanet(s): Cathar, Naboo|
|Padawan(s): Maeve Lothaire, Lystra Hale|
On the other hand, I have had the pleasure to be part of a roleplay where luck was pretty much the judge, now in that case what can you do ? Rpdice away. Thanks again Jana, it was great.
Another thing, and Ber-til talked about it, was Jana's cool system, very interesting thing especially for miss vigilante because loots and stuff.
That's cool and all but as it was previously mentioned, your character constantly changes, you can't always put numbers on this or that. You can't always scrutinize. And I just can't stress it enough but if I want more statistics and DnD elements than there already are, I will do it somewhere else.
"Don't worry about your XP, don't worry about your levels."
Putting in a system like this would also put MORE emphasis on this. JEDI has never been about the levels/xp, it's been about the RP itself. I feel like this kind of idea might draw away from this.
Just because it works for DnD, doesn't mean it will work here. DnD is built around dice, basically. And within DnD, time moves as the GM sees fit. Within JEDI, time is in constant motion even when you're not online. Characters that don't get to play much, or have to go away for periods of time, are already at a disadvantage as I've stated before, and adding another layer on top of that wouldn't be fair. It just means the people who get to be more active progress even MORE, creating bigger gaps between people.
I don't mind an RP check for something luck based, as in something like the following example:
You step on a stick, roll to see if this bad guy notices. You roll bad, he notices, roll again to see if they move to see if they try to investigate, or return to what they're doing.
This kind of stuff I don't mind when it comes to dice. It fits, and makes sense, if the mission director wants to go that route. It's not something your character might have control of, unless they influence the mind of the target, but then that can go a whole other direction.
Human from Corellia
Born 364.20 (25)
Initiated on Ossus
Transfered to Rannon on 369.29
Padawan to Iffo Rav'i on 372.07, Masterless on 377.30
Padawan to Teynara Jeralyr on 378.14, Masterless on 381.20