XP & Levels Alternative

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Aqua Sol
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XP & Levels Alternative

Post by Aqua Sol »

Before you read, please take my suggestion with a grain of salt. I'm still fairly new to the community and have yet to see how it works from a Knight or more advanced perspective. So, please understand if I don't understand something about the XP and level system or the history behind it, I'm not stubbornly refusing to acknowledge something or making some other kind of stance or statement. I've simply only been around for 2 and a half months.

What is even the point of XP?

From my understanding it:
  • Acts a reward for attending classes/events
  • Helps measure levels to assist in showing how long people have been active and around.
  • Is used to unlock skills
I've actually had issues with this as I feel people should attend classes and events for the RP not for some form of OOC reward, especially since in a lot of classes some people do just park there and barely pay attention. As for it helping to measure levels to show activity, that's not entirely accurate because it only really reliably shows the activity of those who can be on during classes and events. I'm a perfect example of this.

To be frank, the XP system's only actual merit in my eyes is regulating the HP/Shield/Force Juice. However, that could easily be done by just limiting it per rank, with Padawan maybe split into three OOC tiers to represent the diversity in skill levels there.

I feel like people put a lot of emphasis on level, with people even making off handed comments about Kiara's level being "low" when she was knighted. And as much as the council goes ''Level doesn't matter, it shouldn't.'' That doesn't change the fact that as it currently stands, level does seem to matter quite a bit. The resident's page is even organized by who has the highest level. That kind of sends a different message, ya dig?

Frankly, a better system in my eyes would be to just get rid of XP and instead regulate the HP/Shield/Force Juice based on ranks, with, like I mentioned before, three different ranks within Padawan for beginner Padawans, intermediate Padawans and advanced Padawans. Perhaps something similar for knights but only split into two, new Knights and experienced Knights.

To go a step further for a more RP based system that focuses more on character, you could even have different ranks within the ranks, but I'm not sure if this would even be viable. However, you could have different balances of HP/Shield/Force Juice for different "archetypes" of characters. So, let's say there's a ''balanced'' build that has 100 across the board for HP/Shield/Force, (100/100/100) for characters who are more balanced and train in a bit of everything.

Say a padawan like Billy Bob who focuses a lot more on saber stuff but not actual physical or force stuff stuff would be more balanced with equal HP/Shield with a bit less force, so 110/110/85 or something. A padawan like Joe Joe who focuses a lot on physical strength and training that but not really force stuff that would have something like 120/100/85. Another padawan like Robby John focuses on force abilities and trains that super well, but they don't focus as much on physical stuff. 85/100/120. Finally, you could have padawan Jenny Penny who's super into her tech and artisan stuff and focuses a lot on that, so she tricks out her shield capacity so 85/120/100.

These are just examples of little "archetypes" that could be available for people. There could be five archetypes with different HP/Shield/Force Juice pay outs. Balanced, Saber Focused, Physical Focused, Force Focused and Shield Focused. I can already think of lots of characters who would fall into each of these groups. Of course, this is just an example of an alternative that could still regulate varying levels of HP/Shield/Force Juice while also adding more of an RP flare to it.

So it would be something like this:
  • You join and are initiated, you get basic Initiate stats of, say, 25/25/25.
  • You are taken as a Padawan or pass the Initiate Trials. You get bumped up to Beginner Padawan and have, say, 50/50/50.
  • You progress your story enough to have a feel for what your character is good or bad at. You've been here for a couple of years at the least. You get bumped up to Intermediate Padawan and have, say, 100/100/100 at base but you now also get the option to choose an archetype that further customizes your stats based on your choice.
  • You've been here a while now and are fairly experienced and have gone on several missions or what not. Basically, you've been here for several years now and your master has worked with you to help you grow even further. You get bumped up to 150/150/150 or something according to your archetype.
  • You've finally been knighted! Woo! You get bumped to New Knight and get 200/200/200 or something. Archetype plays in as well.
  • You're one of the older knights now, you get bumped up to Experienced Knight. 250/250/250.
  • You're now a master, wowzers! 300/300/300.
Of course, progression to the next ''rank'' would be up to the master and council discretion based on their RP and progress. I could see Padawans with less than active masters getting the shaft with this system, but I think that would also help enforce masters at least touching base with their padawans more often than not.

I can't even begin to understand how this kind of thing could get coded or expanded upon. This is just a suggestion on something I think would be more RP and character oriented than the base XP system we have currently.

I hope that made sense. Sorry, this was originally supposed to be a much shorter response to the .5 XP thread but then Jana said she'd like to see alternatives to the XP system. So I figured, what could it hurt to post a suggestion?

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Kallan Reu
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Re: XP & Levels Alternative

Post by Kallan Reu »

I would much prefer seeing the current roster in alphabetical order much like our lost ones are! It looks a bit like a ladder than a page that is meant to show our current members and their biography.

I'm personally an avid fan of removing XP and like others say, just have an 'unlock' method!

I personally think we should stick with our current layout of ranks and simply have them at default hp/fps set per rank as opposed to a progression or arch-type system.

I feel as if there needs to be more discussion in lessons and how they are approached. I find it odd I can attend let's say, a lesson on droids by Nara, then a lesson on force theory with Caerith's alt and then maybe a lesson on piloting, after that I'm picking up Def 2 that has no relation to any of my previous lessons but I can because I have the XP to do so.

My ideal world would see mentors given the ability to 'unlock' a student's ability after related-classes and lessons have been performed. The emphasis would be brought into roleplay and not figures. I suppose this would be more problematic for knights since they don't have mentors anymore and would probably end up a lot of work for the Council. Who knows, maybe this means mentors will reach out to each other and learn new things from one another :p

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Teynara Jeralyr
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Re: XP & Levels Alternative

Post by Teynara Jeralyr »

Honestly...no.

I've seen systems like the one you're suggesting before, and they're genuinely terrible. Aside from being pretty limiting, they damage a lot of the IC character development, particularly now that we have open Force/Physical pools that allow us to spend some of our XP to grow in terms of HP/Shields and Force powers. And, to be quite fair, we do limit those in terms of growth per level: a student with Level 3 is going to have a good deal less HP/Shield/Force than one with Level 12, and that works well to show gradual development over time.

Honestly, XP has only ever struck me as the right way to go. Yes, it has pitfalls, but most of that boils down to how XP is handled by the community, and that's a thing that can be resolved. The system itself isn't broken: the way we use it is. If we give out truckloads of XP for every class you attend, of course you're going to spam classes, even ones that have little for your character to learn (likely because you've had that class before). Is that the fault of the system? No. It's ours, for handing out XP as a motivator.

As I recall, Aqua, you yourself have previously requested that some of your XP grants be denied - and that's exactly what should be happening here. If you don't feel your character actually gained anything from an experience, it's perfectly logical to not accept the XP for it.

Yes, there are going to be people who are more focused on XP gains than others, but honestly, they're the ones that don't last long in the community, because they base their time here on progress, and don't have the patience to embrace the spirit of RP within the community. If all you want is XP and fancy powers...you're in the wrong place, and that quickly becomes apparent.

This honestly strikes me as just unnecessary - I totally see why you're saying it, and I applaud the intentions, but it boils down to the fact that it is the ethos of the community that must change, not the system that exists for our convenience.
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Zel Mirra
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Re: XP & Levels Alternative

Post by Zel Mirra »

I'd like to see something better than the current XP system put in place, but that does beg the biggest question of what can be put in place that would make everyone happy.

One issue I have with the xp system is it heavily favors those that can attend literally everything. And I don't think it can be a good way to indicate activity levels myself. People can be active at different times, and can miss classes for various different reasons. I know I myself have missed classes due to some bad timing for me, but I can be on later in the day than that.

Another issue I have is while it's encouraged to focus on the RP over the XP, I can sometimes find this difficult. We're encouraged to study and practice, as well as socialize. But if you don't have the XP for something, it -can- limit you.

I know people shouldn't focus on the "progress" side of things. But unless you're able to attend classes on a consistent basis, it can tend to lead to some falling behind.

I also know that you can request makeup lessons and things like that, but it just doesn't feel right, to me at least, to have to constantly request makeup lessons for a missed class.

One solution I can thing of, is instead of buying skills with XP, a Knight has to "unlock" them. This way, RP could be the deciding factor on if someone is able to get a skill or not. This might require a little bit of extra effort, so it might not be a popular idea (especially if it comes to a large class on a sheet ability). But it's an idea none the less that might take emphasis off XP, and put it more on RP.

-}Zel Mirra{-
-}Born: 384.06 ABY{-
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-}Masterless Padawan: 398.28 ABY on Alzoc III{-

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Teynara Jeralyr
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Re: XP & Levels Alternative

Post by Teynara Jeralyr »

The problem with that, Zel, would be consistency. How many lessons does it take to unlock a skill? Do I just bug one Master, or need I have multiple lessons? And what's the qualitative nature of that unlock? It'd be a tricky thing to regulate, and we'd end up with a lot of inconsistency.
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Zechs Demming
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Re: XP & Levels Alternative

Post by Zechs Demming »

Reminder to those that are newer, our class/level/XP system has not always been the same as it is now. It has been more restrictive at a certain point where individuals had to choose an actual "class," (guardian, sentinel, consular, etc).
The system we have no was put in place because it's the least restrictive way possible. There's no reason to put an individual in a box based on their focuses. For example, a character could be immensely fit and capable with health, while also being capable in the Force. The previous class systems we used fell into categories similar you described , but actually detracted from RP because people didn't always fit in the boundaries and would often have a class of one thing, while IC portraying another.

Our system we have now puts the least restrictions as possible. The downside of XP is that its controlled by individuals. We give it out and decide who gets what and et cetera, but remember that XP is not necessarily a measure of skill and capability. You can be capable of things in RP that don't translate to the XP board.
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Chiv Bango
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Re: XP & Levels Alternative

Post by Chiv Bango »

So back in the early days of JA role playing and even in JK2:JO (before RP mod and ::JEDI::) the force point system was a way to track your progression as a Jedi. Your master would say "Okay you've learned X. Add the next bubble." You can imagine the craziness that would happen. Remapping, A master hyper trains his student to be a Jedi Master in four months and some other exploits.

Another thing to note is that Sheilds and Health were not changeable per person. Force pool could only be modified based on bubbles filled (even then I remember it only being the regeneration speed). Saber damages could be modified by model but that's pretty much the extent. So Saber skill was a real thing. Back then a master had to be competitively good at the game.

Any way...Then this mod came out and it followed the same tradition, more or less. It was an XP based method to track progress and more importantly gave more control to the leadership to regulate progress. But it still has the "game element" which is hard to get around.

But it actually helps. Because unlike back in the day, the RP mod has a better way to demonstrate the progression of a Jedi. Rather than being stages, like it was (three bubbles was a knight, four was a master.) the RP mod attempts to spread that out. It shows that a padawan just before their trials into knighthood is much different to a day one initiate/padawan. Because back in the day the only difference was head knowledge and saber skills.

The XP based sheilds, health and Force pool separates the two. Sheilds and health help define saber skills. This way even some one bad as a JK:JA player can still feel progress as a Jedi. The force pool is...well let's just say, it depends on how you envision the force being played out in "reality". Some one could have a force pool determined day one based on midiclorians. How ever that is not fun and limits what you can do as a Jedi. The current "growth" method is more of an abuse filter (and freedom of choice) than any thing and matches a learned ability model of the force.

The two ways I see to get rid of the gaming of XP is either:

-Assign a knight to an initiate day one (like we did back before RPmod) and give 100% (supervised) control of that character to the knight they are paired with. And then let leadership decide how they want to handle a characters "Jedi power" progress.

-Play how you want and hope there are people out there that see it and value it. If you want to do more RP than leveling. Fantastic. There are plenty of people in the community on both sides. (Like Tey said, the people who game usually get burned out or weeded out)

The current method is more RPG than just RP. I think it has more to do with history and being a Jedi RP than anything.


P.S What Zechs said also. I remember having to chose a Jedi class and it being a real struggle.
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Daegon Evera
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Re: XP & Levels Alternative

Post by Daegon Evera »

Zechs Demming wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 7:38 pm Reminder to those that are newer, our class/level/XP system has not always been the same as it is now. It has been more restrictive at a certain point where individuals had to choose an actual "class," (guardian, sentinel, consular, etc).
The system we have no was put in place because it's the least restrictive way possible. There's no reason to put an individual in a box based on their focuses. For example, a character could be immensely fit and capable with health, while also being capable in the Force. The previous class systems we used fell into categories similar you described , but actually detracted from RP because people didn't always fit in the boundaries and would often have a class of one thing, while IC portraying another.

Our system we have now puts the least restrictions as possible. The downside of XP is that its controlled by individuals. We give it out and decide who gets what and et cetera, but remember that XP is not necessarily a measure of skill and capability. You can be capable of things in RP that don't translate to the XP board.
Said it best
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Zechs Demming
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Re: XP & Levels Alternative

Post by Zechs Demming »

Chiv Bango wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 8:26 pm
-Assign a knight to an initiate day one (like we did back before RPmod) and give 100% (supervised) control of that character to the knight they are paired with. And then let leadership decide how they want to handle a characters "Jedi power" progress.
Not sure where you got this information but it's not entirely correct for JEDI. Before RPmod we used JA+, but we still had an XP system, it was just based off a form in character journals. XP was given out as it is now for classes, it was just assigned to be used towards specific powers. If it was a generic class, the player could choose where they wanted to apply it.

Examples:


Jump : OOO

/////////// /////////////////

Push : OOO

/////////////// /////////////////////////

Pull : OOO

/////////////// /////////////////////////

Speed : OOO

/////// ////////////// ////////////////////////

Seeing : OOO

/////// ////////////// ////////////////////////

Absorb : OOO

///////// ////////////////// ////////////////////////////

Heal : OOO

///////// ////////////////// ////////////////////////////

Protect : OOO

///////// ////////////////// ////////////////////////////

Mind Trick : OOO

///////// ////////////////// ////////////////////////////

Saber Offense : OOO

/////////////// ////////////////////

Saber Defence : OOO

/////////////////// ////////////////////////////

Saber Throw : OOO
((You've been granted 3 Neutral points to spend as you see fit.))
((3 points to jump for a total of 5 | Applied))
You have gained 3 specialised points to apply as you wish
((Three points to Heal, for a total of three))
((Two points to saber offense for a totaly of two / Applied))

All of the responses dictating where to apply points came from the student. While we have an Overseer program now for JEDI, at that time before RPmod, we still had the same system we had now, just that the Knight giving the XP was responsible for applying it where it was assigned in the initial template. Once an initiate became a Padawan, it became their master's responsibility. No one was assigned a Knight to them on day one, and the student still had the majority control (like we do now, just more restricted then) of where to apply the XP on their template.
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Chiv Bango
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Re: XP & Levels Alternative

Post by Chiv Bango »

I was talking about RP groups before ::Jedi::. I don't know anything about ::Jedi:: history. I kinda assumed it formed/reformed with the mod. So in my mind ::Jedi:: was synonymous with the mod.
But that's cool to know.
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