Class Balance (Proposal 3 Page 10, Updated 288.22)

[Tomoran]

And what can knights/masters do about students dropping points into things?

Their job!
Keep an eye on what students are doing, especially initiates. The self-teaching yellow stance is a good example. Don't just shrug it off.

As was mentioned, we're attempting to address this in an instance post.

If the student is your padawan, then make sure they are actually deserving of a skill before giving it. A crummy 10 minute session does not merrit as a decent lesson.
Also, are you saying there is no way for an admin to REMOVE a skill point from a template because that student has wrongfully taken it?

No, there isn't a way for an admin to REMOVE a skill point from a template, only Council and High Council can do that, not normal knights or masters.

What you are suggesting Tomoran is that Game Play should take presidence over role play here. That's a bad direction to go.

straw man.

I understand that you don't want to Role Play being able to jump if you can't actually do it through game mechanics. "Put your game where your mouth is" and all that.

Okay.

I have push 1 (because I was directed to apply it) yet I think I have pressed the key to use it about ... 5 times. Just because I have access to a skill does not mean I am a master at it nor does it mean I use it constantly. My RP and my character dictates what skills I take. My Template does not dictate my RP.

straw man

Right now, because the level 1 Force Points are affordable, people can specialize at an early stage. That's great if you ask me! Students can start forming their strengths (and subsequently, short falls) early in their career.
By Making the ONLY achievable powers Jump, Push and Pull you are simply paving the way for a boring cookie-cutter Jedi.
People will pick the low-hanging fruit when it comes to Force Powers.

Begging the Question

"Oh I really want speed but I can't be bothered saving a rediculous amount of points for it, so i'll just take jump, push or pull so i'm loaded because they're easier to get."

straw man.

This is removing the freedom of choice and herding us down a narrow leveling experience.

begging the question

Just because Speed has "little" change as it levels, should not be reason to make it out to be a super-difficult skill to learn. It should be fairly simple for in initiate to learn in a short time.

If you say so

EDIT: My post does sound very agumentative, so i'm sorry about that. However I tend to respond when I see RP being placed second to Gameplay

Still not sure where I suggested that roleplay was second to gameplay.

[Aslyn Denethorn]

Tomoran, I have to be honest, I have no idea what exactly your responses meant there. The only thing that struck me as conversational was

As was mentioned, we're attempting to address this in an instance post.

So, could you please possibly answer the others in the same way, because I honestly don't know what you're talking about when you say 'Straw Man' or 'Begging the question'. I know what both terms mean in normal conversation, but that time, they seem to lack context, and as such, just seem flippant and don't answer the questions or concerns being put forward.

Although, by 'admin', I'm fairly certain they were referring to the Council.

For reference, though, your template mechanics and your RP do tend to mesh, people. If you only have Hold One, you had better not be RPing that you've levitated an object around the room. Why? Because you can't. A lot of students (and some among the Knighthood) like to spend their time on 'fuzzy skills' - abilities that don't exist on their templates, but that they RP through, and while I love the idea in principle, usually the skills they've picked are way beyond their ability or frankly just crazy/epic/awesome, and not part of standard RP (these being used to 'stand out').

In truth, we all need to do better with our RP skills - rightfully, we can't go using game mechanics to make up for our inadequacies. A student without Jump 1 shouldn't go using the backflip emotes and the like, because those are realistically things they can't yet do. Likewise, if a Knight/Master doesn't have an ability or skill (lightsaber or Force Power), they can't go just using \rpempower to 'obtain' that skill temporarily because it offers an advantage, or allows them to use it as a teaching aid - that's contrary to the idea of good RPing.

You're right, gameplay is secondary to RP, but that doesn't mean you can use the gameplay mechanics as a crutch, to offer you an advantage you otherwise wouldn't have. If you don't have a skill, don't go suggesting otherwise, and definitely don't go simulating it through emotes or admin commands. Ultimately, that's cheating, and is frankly an example of bad RP. Your template dictates your skill set - it's up to you to determine what skills you have, and use those skills only, because that's what your character has learned, and that's what available to you.

Anyone using Force Powers they haven't bought or aren't on their template are basically Power-gaming or GMing. That's not something we're supposed to tolerate around here, and that needs to stop happening. Keep it in mind, people.

[Sebastin Creed]

EDIT: Apologies, seems Aslyn beat me too the point. Good points too.

Tomoran,

I'm not sure what is meant by that post but it didn't make for useful reading from me. What does Straw man mean? (Sorry if this makes you laugh, but I've not heard the term before: enlighten me).

I understand most of Amoné's points but if you have something to add/answer to the points made, post them in something one than one liners.

If not, don't reply to it.

I'm interested in seeing where this thread goes but back and forths like these are useless - I understand the points everyone is making, question is - what can be done about it that meets most of the needs?

Strict Admin?
Transparency?
Rules of Role Play?

[Tomoran]

A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

Begging the question (or petitio principii, "assuming the initial point") is a type of logical fallacy in which the proposition to be proven is assumed implicitly or explicitly in the premise. The first known definition in the West is by the Greek philosopher Aristotle around 350 BC, in his book Prior Analytics, where he classified it as a material fallacy. Begging the question is related to the circular argument, circulus in probando (Latin, "circle in proving") or circular reasoning, though these are considered absolutely different by Aristotle.

I've used these terms to avoid long and pointless debates over misrepresentations of my ideas.

Also, this is a thread about suggestions to address the lack of balance in RPMod's current class configuration. A long-winded debate topic on roleplay rules or council oversight is probably better suited to Jedi Discussion.

Please try to stay on-topic and be civil.

[Amoné Fayden]

Tomoran, please stop taking everything I say so personally.
You've been doing that way too much recently and frankly, it's getting depressing.
If I disagree with you, fine.
If you disagree with me, fine.
It's going to happen! We're adults, don't go throwing toys out the pram because somebody doesn't agree with you. We're all batting for the same team here and we're here to discuss possibilities, not to blindly conform to ideas we disgree with.

Anyway! I'd like to dissolve hostilities here, okay?

Aslyn made very good points in his post and I agree with them.
Force powers compliment your character's RP abilities. I'm not suggesting people over-power themselves using RP. I'm just saying there should be a balance of IC and OOC restraint.

I just feel Force Power allocation is something that should be self-maintained and if failing that, monitored by those in leadership roles seeing as keeping order is part of the job.
Forcing linear leveling experiences through game play is damaging to RP and people's freedom to make unique templates.

Anyway, to end on a summary:

1) I LIKE the suggested HP/Shield and Force Pool levelling scale you mentioned in the earlier posts.
2) I LIKE the suggested revamping of end-level powers.
3) I DON'T like the suggested new XP costs on Force Points.
4) I DON'T like game mechanics being altered to punish people who take care to RP skills realistically because a few minorities abuse the system.

[Illrian Damaris]

Because, to be blunt. And once again, no offense intended. You Empower yourself to use force powers.

Likewise, if a Knight/Master doesn't have an ability or skill (lightsaber or Force Power), they can't go just using \rpempower to 'obtain' that skill temporarily because it offers an advantage, or allows them to use it as a teaching aid - that's contrary to the idea of good RPing.

That probably is the first thing that needs to be controlled. It's been mentioned here a lot about "power-leveling" yet, Knights who don't have powers yet use /empower to get them don't set good examples at all, actually they pave the fricken road to younger students more-or-less getting what they want. If people want to stop all the power-leveling, they need to stop abusing their admin abilities first. Eugen was not mistaking on what he said, it's kind of proven when you look at the Force Template.

I'm not trying to start a war, or go against anyone here. But that is what needs to be done. If people want to stop others from power-leveling, don't injure everyone because of them.. first actually set a good example! That's where it starts. Let others follow your example.. which some do. If you use admin to gain certain abilities, you're first of all screwing the idea of the RPMod Template to begin with, and you're also abusing Admin Abilities to gain what your character shouldn't know. You're also personally paving the road to power-leveling in some peoples eyes.

1) I LIKE the suggested HP/Shield and Force Pool levelling scale you mentioned in the earlier posts.
2) I LIKE the suggested revamping of end-level powers.
3) I DON'T like the suggested new XP costs on Force Points.
4) I DON'T like game mechanics being altered to punish people who take care to RP skills realistically because a few minorities abuse the system.

Agreed with this.

[Tomoran]

RPEmpower is a command that has been used as an effective "Honed concentration" effect on students and Knights for years. Its applications are few and far in between. It has been granted to students in missions to help them squeeze through difficult moments, using a force ability at a rank they don't have to clear an obstacle under pressure.

It has been used as utility, letting Knights build those pesky staircases on blueice twilight every morning because jokesters had to tear them down for some unknown reason. It represents an IC and OOC tool with various applications.

So, cries of abuse, Knight faults aside, the issue is higher XP costs? And that people are being punished for roleplaying?

The first one was compromised. I mentioned that ranks 1-2 would take a reduction in cost, like, a page ago.

The second point is a matter of opinion, and since arguing opinions is ridiculous especially given that it has more or less no evidence I will just say that I disagree.

[Ruluk]

So, you wanted it, you got it! The UBER LONG POST FROM RULUK!!

Disclaimer: Anything expressed afterwards is solely my opinion (or... is it?). I just wanted to share it with you. Oh, and I always love that you do read these long posts till the end.

OMG I freaking did an essay. Ah well, I hope you do read it... xD

We're all batting for the same team here and we're here to discuss possibilities, not to blindly conform to ideas we disgree with.

I will start with this quote to tell you that, in the end, "bat on the same team" and "disagree" at the same time is indeed possible. Usually, as you might have noticed, trouble comes when disagreements turn into endless discussions of 2-6 pages, with the same content being repeated over and over again. But in the end, it's not that big of a deal... we're not meant to live happily ever after anyways. There'd be no fun in that!

This time, we got an interesting discussion about one of those themes that never really get a conclusion. If I recall correctly, the discussion went from making Force Powers more expensive, to current abuse of Force Powers, to current abuse of admin commands, to the lack of responsibility and matureness when talking about a Force template.

So, cries of abuse, Knight faults aside, the issue is higher XP costs? And that people are being punished for roleplaying?

Well, it all summarizes up to the apparent root problem,

RP should not be dictated by game mechanics. But no one should abuse the RP to be more advanced then he actually is.

, and when planting the solution, we ask,

...what can be done about it that meets most of the needs?

Strict Admin?
Transparency?
Rules of Role Play?

Then, for answering, a wise approach could be to think of where the problem is lying. Is it on the masters for bad leadership? or bad example? is it on the students for being unresponsible XP scavengers? Truth is,

And what can knights/masters do about students dropping points into things? They can't modify rpmod accounts to adjust max templates of students, and trust me, students who create wonky templates or roleplay bizarre power capacities are only digging themselves hilariously deep graves.

We hold the Knights and Masters responsible. We also hold the students responsible.

and we get to see, that effectively, we are just blaming each other constantly. Who, then, is responsible? Who is that person we all talk about that keeps abusing constantly? It can't be any of us who have spoken so far, because we all are clearly against it. Then who?

If 80% of the people around here have posted in this thread, it's my guess that they do care to get this place better. Then who is really doing this? Who wants to make this place worse, if all of us are against it?

As a bold guess, I'll tell that we're not really practicing what we preach. Stop blaming on each other, and start looking into yourself. All of you. Me included. No need to keep blaming for now. Let's simply get this place better, together. The rest will come in by itself.

There's this other option, where we impose some control over the template. However, we conclude that

This is removing the freedom of choice and herding us down a narrow leveling experience.

and

I just feel Force Power allocation is something that should be self-maintained

Well, I agree there, and say that if we seriously get into the business, we can definitely trust ourselves.

Heck, if it was a matter of all of us being immature, I say forcing templates up is a good idea. But, in the opposite side (which I believe we should reach), we would be conscious of what we do with out template, and all powers could even cost the exact same thing. We wouldn't even need XP, because we would be mature enough to use a power ONLY when we have learned it.

So let's see what we can do! First, let's remember that, as we all know, a thing we all need, and we're all constantly improving, is RP skills... We come to this problem:

...gameplay is secondary to RP, but that doesn't mean you can use the gameplay mechanics as a crutch, to offer you an advantage you otherwise wouldn't have. If you don't have a skill, don't go suggesting otherwise, and definitely don't go simulating it through emotes or admin commands. Ultimately, that's cheating, and is frankly an example of bad RP. Your template dictates your skill set - it's up to you to determine what skills you have, and use those skills only, because that's what your character has learned, and that's what available to you.

Anyone using Force Powers they haven't bought or aren't on their template are basically Power-gaming or GMing. That's not something we're supposed to tolerate around here, and that needs to stop happening. Keep it in mind, people.

He gives quite an important advice. Most of it, I agree with, except for the green text... Well, let's take a look at it backwards. Why not, say, try to handle a more conscious, more mature RP skill set first? What's with the urge to have all the powers you imagined? You'll get them eventually, no need to go all frenzy to get them. You won't die if you wait a little bit. Take it more calmly, and instead focus on the other fun aspects of RPing, cause there are many.

If people want to stop all the power-leveling, they need to stop abusing their admin abilities first.

This is but one step of removing all this power-levelling. If we want to solve this so much, let's fix it, all of us, together, as the team we're meant to be.

However, why not do the other choice, of forcing the control of the template by increasing XP costs for everything? Because

Maxing the XP, on a system that is not even finished. Not only limits the RP, But makes one go xp frenzy to get that power (leveling up while doing that) that he learned IC wise. And second. Someone told me your level says how strong you are...

and

We should be focusing on finalizing the powers before we bother with any sort of XP and/or class system.

So that's my view. I really hope that we get to recognize any and all RP mistakes within us, gradually, and start fixing them. Because we can. It's just a matter of making the choice!

==========

But enough of this long talk, let's remember that

this is a thread about suggestions to address the lack of balance in RPMod's current class configuration.

So, let me do some comments on the 3rd proposal itself, leaving this template issue partially aside.

Also, the fact that by level 25 every master knows everything about every force power in our template seems silly.[...]Around level 18-19 basically everybody has most of what they want and they just start tossing into whatever else - things aren't expensive enough.

Well, you're right, in that by lvl 25, you get it all, and it would seem logical that by lvl 19 you have the XP needed for everything you originally needed. So far, I agree that giving high-level powers a higher cost seems reasonable, especially for the 4th and 5th levels, which, let's face it, only special cases should learn.

But there are two things to note about this. First, we have to consider that right now, only one person among us is practically at level 25. A very small amount are level 20+. And we know that most people seem to get bored or quit before reaching high levels. Considering what I just said, I don't really see the all-powerful 25-level character as an issue, since very few would ever get it, and it would happen after RL years of being in this community.

Second, as Amoné said it somewhere else, it's not a matter of having the XP to buy a power. It's a matter of having learned that power in RP. And, a single session wouldn't make you learn anything at all. If you want, let's ask a Shaolin Monk how long does it take to control an animal mind, or break the unbreakable, or such outstanding abilities.... JEDI might have midichlorians, but I haven't seen them become super-powerful just because of that. They need training... years of training, which would be months of RL rping. Maybe waiting two months for a single power is too much, but having it in a week is the exact opposite; it's just too little.

So, as I said before, take it slow, no need to haste, and realize that having 100 free XP doesn't mean that you have to spend it all. Save it till you really earn a power. It's not like you'll lose the XP if you don't use it right away. My own Force template is a proof of it, and I'm not the only one.

That's my proposal: let XP accumulate in your pool.

Don't think it's possible to make the powers cost more based on class.

Well, if people don't like my suggestion of changing ourselves, and we eventually have to force it, I think that this would actually be a nice idea. It's not possible right now as is, but I'm quite certain that it can be applied, if Soh codes it that way.

Just because Speed has "little" change as it levels, should not be reason to make it out to be a super-difficult skill to learn. It should be fairly simple for in initiate to learn in a short time.

Well, again, if all of this is ignored, I have to say that you're right. I prefer speed to have bigger change between levels than make it so expensive, since it doesn't seem that hard compared to other powers.

That's it!

Oh, and maybe you didn't notice, but I just managed to make all of your discussions go to the same direction, by quoting all of you in a single post. You are, in a way, agreeing to the same thing. Maybe a little modified, but my point is, we *Can* get along if we try to.