Guardian Force Points

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Illrian Damaris
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Guardian Force Points

Post by Illrian Damaris »

Well, as it's known to most.. once a Guardian hits level 15 their Force Points no longer go up. They stay at 100.

I've been looking over the classes, specifically the Consular's and Guardian's, and I was thinking that perhaps having the FP on a Guardian go up slightly with each level should be done.

When a Consular hits level 15, their HP still goes up. While it doesn't go up that much, it still does.. Their HP goes to 150 and their FP goes to 250. Perhaps, the same can be done with the Guardian. Have their HP go to 250, but their FP to 150. That way it still stays even across the board when you think about it.

I've just been going over it, and it makes no sense why Guardian's FP stops at 100 at level 15, yet Consular's HP doesn't stop.. they should do the same, not one gets the better deal. That's just my personal opinion. Cause I've been looking it over for awhile, and I just can't make sense of it...
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Post by Tomoran »

Someone does get a better deal. Sentinel.
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Post by Illrian Damaris »

Well, I was more meaning between Consular and Guardian.
But yeah.. Sentinel will always get the better deal.
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Post by Delmi N'jork »

I do agree that Guardians should have more FP; not as much as a Sentinel, but more than what they have. To have it stay at 100 from level 15 up is odd to me.
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Post by Aslyn Denethorn »

I disagree. Guardians can already be practically immortal, what with HP/Shield and Protect V. And though Consulars do gain HP, it's so pitifully minimal that it's practically an insult - at level 20, I have 132 HP. That's nothing.
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Post by Amoné Fayden »

It's a difficult one to balance simply because of game mechanics.

The problem that guardians face is that physical traits like Jump, Speed, Lunges, YDFA, RDFA and Katas all consume Force Points.

It is arguable that a guardian would be better at these Physical traits than a Consular due to their training and discipline. However, because they have to use the Force pool for these, Guardians appear to "get tired" at physical things quicker than Consulars which doesn't really make sense.

It's a hard one to balance due to our limitations.

And please, no "stamina bar" suggestions. Those go nowhere. :P
Last edited by Amoné Fayden on Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Zeak Dystiny »

If Guardians get an increase FP total, they should get a large increase in the time it takes to regenerate Force then. Can't have it both ways. Think a faster regen might be more preferable but even then it's iffy; you really do get a large HP/Shield boost compared to others, to compensate.

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Post by Tomoran »

By level 18, all classes regenerate Force at the same rate, the maximum rate, due to the natural server FPS being 20, so twenty frames a second means 50ms is the HIGHEST value that matters for Force Regen.

Even if it says I regenerate force at 1ms, I assure you I don't get 1000 force back a second.
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Post by Aslyn Denethorn »

The problem that guardians face is that physical traits like Jump, Speed, Lunges, YDFA, RDFA and Katas all consume Force Points.

It is arguable that a guardian would be better at these Physical traits than a Consular due to their training and discipline. However, because they have to use the Force pool for these, Guardians appear to "get tired" at physical things quicker than Consulars which doesn't really make sense.
I understand where you're coming from as far as YDFA, RDFA and Katas are concerned, but frankly, you don't have to use those much as a Guardian - in fact, very few members feel the need to spam them to the extent that their FP can't handle the strain. And if they are, well, stop using a lightsaber :P

As for the 'physical traits', I don't buy it - those are Force abilities. Yes, certainly, they use the Force to augment abilities you naturally possess, but it still requires an understanding of Force-based technique. It's not a natural ability, but rather, one that requires Force training. It doesn't exist independently from the usual Force tree, any more than Push, Pull, Hold etc, and comes under the same limitations.

Here's the thing to note: Guardians choose that limitation when they pick their class, and gain the ability to withstand more damage as their primary advantage, as well as gain much stronger Jump, Speed and Protect abilities than the rest of us. Here's the thing: Guardians traditionally aren't strongly focused on their Force use - they spend more time with a lightsaber than in contemplation of the Force, or in developing their abilities with the Force.

Why then would they have a strong personal Force pool (FP capacity), or why would they be able to gather large amounts of Force energy quickly (regen)? They wouldn't, because they ultimately don't spend time working on it as much as those who use the Force more frequently. We like to just note (and flippantly, I feel) that FP and regen is appropriate to level, but really, it's part of the RP itself - a Consular has higher FP and regen because they're primarily Force users, and rely upon their versatility with the Force, spending a lot of time in contemplation and study of the Force. That diminishes their HP, because they don't spend as much time in exercise, or in augmenting their physical condition. The reverse is true of Guardians - they spend more time exercising and getting themselves in combat-ready condition, so their HP/Stamina is naturally higher than a Consular's, but likewise, they won't spend as much time in study and contemplation of the Force, so they won't have a particularly good Regen or FP Pool.

That, to me, makes perfectly logical sense. Switching the system to give Guardians a higher FP pool when their RP generally doesn't warrant it strikes me as potential for unbalancing the system. So unless you start really limiting Guardian access to Force abilities or really crush their regen rate to reflect the IC reasoning, I wouldn't advocate this.
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Post by Amoné Fayden »

Aslyn wrote: As for the 'physical traits', I don't buy it - those are Force abilities.
Yeah thats right, but they do stem from a natural or trained phsyical ability. In my mind, augmented skills should require less focus and "Force Ability" to perform than say Storm or Hold which is pure Force.

Aslyn wrote:Here's the thing to note: Guardians choose that limitation
You're 100% right and I can't argue with that at all. I've experienced Guardian myself in the past and it was certainly an eye opener! :P
I won't be taking Guardian this time around but as somebody who's seen it first hand I do understand Illrian's plight.

Like I said earlier, it's a hard thing to balance!

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Post by Cynthia »

Aslyn wrote:Here's the thing to note: Guardians choose that limitation
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Post by Illrian Damaris »

Aslyn wrote:I disagree. Guardians can already be practically immortal, what with HP/Shield and Protect V. And though Consulars do gain HP, it's so pitifully minimal that it's practically an insult - at level 20, I have 132 HP. That's nothing.
While that's nothing... put a lvl 20 Guardian against a lvl 20 Consular. Everything allowed. The Consular could kick the Guardian's rear end! Why? Simple. The Consular has more FP in order to do the abilities that don't even let the Guardian near them. Sure, the Guardian can use Absorb.. but that doesn't last forever, and the Consular can stay away long enough.. it isn't hard.

Point being. Guardian's are not immortal because they have more HP/SP. They are actually on equal bars with the Consular because the Consular has the Force Abilities, just like the Guardian has the Health.

The point of this, is.. even though a Guardian doesn't put all his focus onto the Force, making them reach their maximum FP at the levl of 15 is illogical. Truly think about it.. as one grows older within the Order, whether they're a Guardian or not, they will spend their time with the Force, even if it isn't their main thing.. they still do it. Just because one is a Guardian does not mean they pretty much say "Screw you, Force!" and go on with their happy lives. They are still Jedi, and they still follow the Force, still work with the Force. They technically use the Force 24/7 with their Lightsaber. Because if you truly think about it.. you can't properly use a lightsaber without the aid of the Force, and that's just for general swings and movements. Some could say that the Guardian is on a deeper level with the Force then most, because they have to use it all the time just to use their lightsaber properly.

So the Consular's don't have the best HP, they have the FP to make up for it. They still, in the end, get the much better deal out of it all then a Guardian does. Because at lvl 25, Guardian's have 250 HP/SP. Consular's have 250 FP. If properly used, they truly balance each other out completely. Then Consular's have 150 HP/SP, and Guardian's only have 100 FP. That's where the Consular can catch the Guardian. It's not always true, but it is more then possible for that to be the case. That's the point I'm getting at with this topic.

In the long run, Consular's have the better deal and if properly used can destroy a Guardian, even if the Guardian is properly using his own abilities. Simply because the Consular can out-match the Guardian. Okay, so Guardian's get more HP/SP. Here's some advice... don't get hit and you'll be perfectly fine. Simple as that.

While you're not getting hit by the Guardian's saber, you can more or less pommel him to the ground with Force Abilities.

Now, I'm not saying jack the Guardian's FP way up there and all that crazy crap. However leaving it at 100 for 10 levels does not make sense to me, not at all. Even if you make it go up just to 115 or 120.. doesn't matter. Point is, it shouldn't just be freezing there at level 15, because as the Gaurdian trains, he's still going to be connecting with the Force, as I said earlier.. so it's logical for his FP to go up, slowly of course, but up never the less..
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Post by Elu Dako »

Aslyn wrote:I disagree. Guardians can already be practically immortal, what with HP/Shield and Protect V. And though Consulars do gain HP, it's so pitifully minimal that it's practically an insult - at level 20, I have 132 HP. That's nothing.
Aslyn has a point about the immortality thing, they are practically leviathans when it comes to survival, take Master Loist for example, has he ever lost a duel to a Jedi Knight or Master during his time as a Jedi Knight. From what I've heard he hasn't but thats beside the point.

Jedi Guardians tend to focus on mainly on Lightsaber combat with the exception of Jedi Master, Shaak Ti who was well learned in the use of force powers dispite her being a Guardian.

And then there was Yoda, a consular with an unparalleled ability and mastery of Ataru, which could cause some to possibly think he was a Guardian.

The way that a consular is more interested in the force means alot of consulars would have a considerable level of healing so in a way you can see why there health continues to go up even after reaching level 15 as stated.

As for Guardians, their small force pool is made up for by their health pool meaning they can last longer in fights meaning they don't need to use the force as much so there isn't really much need for them to have a larger force pool.

Understand?
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Post by Aslyn Denethorn »

You're discounting Protect IV and V, which make the Guardian near immortal, is instantly activated and can be reactivated in a staggeringly short amount of time once it initially wears off. 95% damage reduction. Do you have any idea how much damage you'd need to do to someone with that level of damage reduction to drop them?

And, do remember, if you're going to say that Consulars are supposed to be utterly dependent on their Force Powers to survive, you're asking us to use Force Grip, Lightning, Drain and anything else that's otherwise mean and frankly unsporting to utterly annihilate you. We can do that, I agree, but we can't disarm you of your lightsaber and stop the fight, we can't just push you away and let that be the end of it. Combat usually either goes lightsaber-to-lightsaber (and, at that point, your Consular is dead) or asking us to wield abilities not purely in a small way (i.e. a short blast of Lightning to counter an attempt at DFA, for example), but rather asking us to knock you to the floor and keep blasting...

If Consulars had equal access to Protect, then yeah, maybe we'd have a better shot, because then we'd be okay going toe-to-toe and using the Force as our sole advantage, because it levels the playing field. Without that, and giving that particular advantage to Guardians, you're just asking us to play dirty, because you're asking us to use our Force abilities to even the odds.

And, yes, I can pick you up and hammer you into the floor, or I can choke you to death, or I can zap you with Lightning until you drop and stay down, but that's not what Consulars aim to do. We seek to understand the Force, not use it to annihilate you in a fair fight. I daresay use of our abilities is very much frowned upon. Guardians don't carry that same stigma for tanking us when we hold ourselves back in the interests of being Jedi and simply playing fair.

So, seriously, you now want to add another advantage? I'm all for keeping the FP boosts going for Guardians past 15, but slowly, over time. They grow in the Force, but their mastery of it is very different to ours, and I'd frankly prefer it if people stopped trying to level a playing field that can easily be unbalanced one way or another on any given day.

If you'd rather even up the system, get shot of the classes altogether and try for a more...equitable approach that doesn't automatically oppose two different educational philosophies.
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Post by Illrian Damaris »

Alright, I have to agree with what you said. Simply because I wasn't taking into account about Project.
Aslyn wrote:I'm all for keeping the FP boosts going for Guardians past 15, but slowly, over time.
That's all I was talking about... not some fast thing, but very minimal. Just.. having it up and freeze at level 15 doesn't make sense, really.
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