Guardian Force Points

[Baelin Raddyx]

Honestly, all the benefits of classes can still be reaped with just one combined class. Are we going to spend our xp differently? Of course not, there's no limit to that in the current class system anyways is there? They can still do this from a single class, only hp/fp are evened out.

[Alkur Tekeil]

I was contemplating starting a new topic to examine the practicality of classes, but it seems this topic has digressed from its original topic. So, I might as well post here.

The notion of classes are superfluous. Why? Because they address purely game mechanics, and only to the extent of which powers are unlocked at which levels, as well as HP/FP progression.
As this is not an MMORPG, the class system should strive for a balance in the ability to pit each class against the others, and based on that—assuming players are of equal skill level—each class should be capable of defeating another. But, as it stands, there is too much variety in just how a player can load out their power template, which, if a player makes a decision based on role playing aspects rather than game mechanics, they can severely screw themselves when it comes to pitting templates against templates. And the last time I checked, JEDI was about role playing and game mechanics, not one or the other.

I've heard the argument that templates should be solely based on role playing, and then those individuals turn around and post about how the game mechanics aren't fleshing that out. The game mechanics are the skeletal structure of what we do, the role playing is what fleshes what we do out. We cannot rely on the game mechanics to sustain the role playing, merely support it in minor ways.
One Jedi would not say to another "Well I trained as a Guardian since my apprenticeship, I should handle these Dark Jedi no problem"... No, those two Jedi would work together and strive to overcome their enemies, drawing upon each others strengths while attempting to minimize their weaknesses. Not "I'm the Guardian, which means I'm the meatwall, so I'll go in first and draw their aggro while you DPS the crap outta them".

The class system was a silly notion brought on by KOTOR—and if you recall, wasn't addressed at all, by ANYTHING canon, before KOTOR came around—and was desired by Axem when the mod was first imagined, with the fresh interest of a new and interesting single player RPG, everyone readily agreed it'd be radical.

The notion of Guardians, Consulars, Sentinels is merely a cookie-cutter way of defining Jedi. It doesn't work for game mechanics, and it doesn't work for role playing.

Avoid classes. Classes are excellent to get characters off the ground (brash pilot, smuggler, and young Jedi being the foremost), but you should start deviating from them ASAP. Star Wars defies classes - you can't just call Leia a senator, nor can you just call Han a smuggler. And Luke is CERTAINLY not just a Whining Farmboy. These people are combinations of all sorts of things - one or two traits may stand out, but they all are blended together during game play.

[Amoné Fayden]

The class system was a silly notion brought on by KOTOR—and if you recall, wasn't addressed at all, by ANYTHING canon, before KOTOR came around

<3

I have nothing against "Titles" or "Labels" (Such as "Jedi Archivist" or "Jedi Seer") to give individuals a "field of expertise" for RP purposes rather than blending us all into one uniform with little elbow room to specialize.

But I'm totally up for exploring the removal of classes as a game mechanic once they have been properly looked at. It's touchy though, not everyone is on board with the idea which is understandable.

It would also mean having to retcon a LOT of JEDI-specific history. Or else there would need to be a good "lore" reason for it which is another thing to consider.


Certainly not something to whimsically change overnight.

[Nivek Tholmai]

My input:

Classes = Pointless on the basis that I've know plenty of people choose Sentinel or Consular because of the quicker force regen and higher force pool. They chose this because they were already competent duelests and didn't need the extra HP. Not to mention, it doesn't matter which class you pick because you unlock everything far too soon on your template anyway. By a certain level, you have the same template as everyone else. Yes, your force pool/regen/hp might differ slightly. But if Player Consular is better at duelling than Player Guardian, even if Player Guardian has 70hp more than Player Consular, Player Consular will probably win.

Other thoughts on the topic of class balance:

Scrap classes, severely raise XP cost of abilities to make people think more carefully about what they want to have, thus making us all different when we're fully trained. Make filling the entire template impossible regardless of level and limit the amount of abilities obtainable by the time of reaching the level cap to approximately 8 abilities (That is including saber offence, defense etc) and finally, keep everyone's health/force pools and regen progression equal.

[Sebastin Creed]

Now that could work,

Restrictions and Power Blocking would be pretty amazing to truly defining the character.

(i.e)

• Say you take Rage, you can't take Meld.
• Say you take Storm, you can't take Heal Other

That would certainly have more people take into consideration their Role Play and Path Choice.

Then there won't be any issues with HP and FP regen either, but you would still have restrictions to affect your ability.

[Nivek Tholmai]

Now that could work,

Restrictions and Power Blocking would be pretty amazing to truly defining the character.

(i.e)

• Say you take Rage, you can't take Meld.
• Say you take Storm, you can't take Heal Other

That would certainly have more people take into consideration their Role Play and Path Choice.

Then there won't be any issues with HP and FP regen either, but you would still have restrictions to affect your ability.

EDIT: You could force such things as that. But I would personally prefer it if choosing one ability didn't automatically restrict getting a particular other. If someone wants to waste their XP on lightning level 5 omfgz, that's xp that can't be used towards something else. If the amount of xp required for a level cap is lowered, then they have to think more carefully about what they want BEFORE they max-out. So no more getting powers just for the sake of it, there'd be no spare XP to spend.

[Aslyn Denethorn]

Hmm...I do like that idea, but I wouldn't force particular power blocks on characters, because that limits development. My character has power blocks surrounding the Healing arts and Force Speed, and that's how it'll remain on a permanent basis, but if you dictate blocks, I'd end up blocking out Protect or something else my character actually uses, so that'd just stunt the development thus far.

And I hate having to backpedal

But I do like the idea of boosting the XP costs for Force abilities, simply to make it harder. Keep level 1s where they are - low enough so that students can learn to use the power, but all upgrades become much costlier, so every XP allocation actually has to have some thought put into it.

[Tomoran]

Taken from my other thread, on Force Pool Regeneration:

1. The shortest force regeneration time is 50ms. The server runs at 20 'updates' a second so the most you can get is 20 force a second. Even if my account says that I have 1ms Force Regeneration, I assure you that I don't get 1000 Force a second. This means that Sentinels have 'maximum' Force Regeneration when they go from level 11 to level 12 (where they go from 60ms to 50ms) and Guardians achieve this from level 15 to 16 (where they go from 55ms to 45ms) and Consulars from Level 8 to 9 (where they go from 55ms to 30ms)

So, no, Guardians don't have a disadvantage in regeneration, simply pool size.

[Sebastin Creed]

Ah well see, the power blocks doesn't have to restrict all powers

(i.e) I wouldn't suggest any block/restriction on absorb, protect and the like those can all be done through costs.

but locking out, or running out of XP at some point might save people spending for the sake of it (much like you want to implement anyway).

The restrictions would only really be towards the obvious powers that people should technically 'specialise' in... if that makes any sense in the notion of the idea?

[Amoné Fayden]

Now that could work,

Restrictions and Power Blocking would be pretty amazing to truly defining the character.

(i.e)

• Say you take Rage, you can't take Meld.
• Say you take Storm, you can't take Heal Other

This would stop people from having unique templates. It means that you will never see anybody with those skill combinations which is kind of linear.

I'm with what Nivek mentioned in regards to classes vs player skill.

However I still disagree with increasing XP costs of skills. People will expect more XP to meet these new costs quicker and I'm sure few will disagree that they will receive it. XP-hunting would likely become more of a focus than it is currently due to it's increased value.

I would sooner see people with stockpiles of XP that they are NOT assigning to skills because it does not compliment their character or they have no RP reason to know it.
Students should be trusted to do this themselves though we all know that not everyone is so honest. That's where Knight/Master/Council responsibilities kick in.

You have to keep in mind also, that XP is what grants a player a "level up". It's not purely about asigning XP to Force Powers. By increasing XP costs for skills, you are going to have people at the current accepted "Knighthood Level" and they'll only have a handful of skills to show for it. I know Level isn't everything though i'm sure everyone would agree that it is taken into account even if subconsciously.


Just something else to think about along with Olim's point on people suddenly losing abilities because they lack the XP to continue their current template.

[Nivek Tholmai]

You have to keep in mind also, that XP is what grants a player a "level up". It's not purely about asigning XP to Force Powers. By increasing XP costs for skills, you are going to have people at the current accepted "Knighthood Level" and they'll only have a handful of skills to show for it. I know Level isn't everything though i'm sure everyone would agree that it is taken into account even if subconsciously.


Just something else to think about along with Olim's point on people suddenly losing abilities because they lack to XP to continue their current template.

Raise the XP cost of levelling up. There's only like 5xp difference between the first few levels anyway.

As for suddenly loosing abilities: I would presume everyone would be given a fresh start and encouraged to then choose carefully rather than have everything that's available, which is better isn't it? For instance, say this were implemented, Jared (First one I clicked, no particular reason) would have to look at his template now and say right, do I really want my character to use Drain? Is Force Speed really relevent for my character? It can't be viewed as unfair because everyone would have to undergo the process.

On the subject of the XP race. It doesn't matter what we do, that's how some people are always going to look at it regardless of any alteration we make.

[Sebastin Creed]

I would welcome a fresh template with these new ideas implemented, yet again you might be able to really pick what you feel *is* your characters area of study.

I just think that you still technically can have 'unique' templates because let's be honest everyone is going to have something similar on that template throughout JEDI anyway, I just think restrictions or costs increases will make them consider which direction they really want to go... sure, you can have multiple abilities still, but you need to define the area.

Defensive or Offensive.

Force Mastery or Saber Arts.

Then all the 'core' abilities.

[Amoné Fayden]

That just seems like an awful lot of retconning, especially if players have taken great care to enforce these abilities as part of their RP or even if their abilities are integral to their characters.

I wouldn't be opposed to a +2 or +5 offset on XP costs. That's a realstic and managable increase.
But to increase skill costs by 10, 20, 30 points. Ouch!

Why are high-end people assigning points to skills that make no sense just for the sake of using them anyway?

[Nira'kalen'nuruodo]

The only power restrictions I'd support wholeheartedly would be based on rank, as opposed to level and/or power choice. It's currently JEDI policy that Padawans aren't allowed to apply XP to any power higher than Tier 3, for example, so Tier 4 and 5 would be restricted to Knights.

The simpler the system, the easier it will be to balance.

[Amoné Fayden]

The simpler the system, the easier it will be to balance.

Really can't argue with that.