I know it's been said before, but...

[Sebastin Creed]

Also wouldn't hurt if we did something about this:

It's no secret that when/if a player gets to Knighthood they start magically learning skills and abilities they've never trained in. Now couple that with the ability to increase FP and HP (and shields for that matter) along with a high amount of XP gains for being a Knight/Master.

We don't let the students do it, so we need to set an example and not do it either. So maybe we need some sort of formal system in place to deal with post-Knighthood learning, too?

VERY much with you on this one, but again we need to lead by example along with it and with our feet on the ground. Too much running ahead and floating into chaos with some ideas.

However, that's maybe something for a new topic?

_________________

Back on this one, I agree with your idea about taking one ability locking out the others. I think the Council should have final say on HOW that actually works, but proposals should be forwarded to them for ideas and suggestions.

[Azrael]

Back on this one, I agree with your idea about taking one ability locking out the others. I think the Council should have final say on HOW that actually works, but proposals should be forwarded to them for ideas and suggestions.

Perhaps a more varied class system than what is in place already? Rather than the 3 basic guidelines in Jedi training (Guardian, Sentinel, Consular) a slightly larger, more broad range of classes are implemented based a lot more specifically on what 'job' your character chooses to take. A Healer class, being the only class that can max out Heal/Heal Others but cannot get lightning. Some form of stealth class that can max mind-trick but fall flat when it comes to anything related to TK. A scholarly class that excels in the 'exotic' powers but really lacks when it comes to things like protect or speed. The 'every class can max everything eventually' model at he moment could do with that kind of overhaul.

[Aslyn Denethorn]

Can't say I agree with that, Az, because then you'd be picking 'profession' based on what it can do for your template, rather than because it's good for your RP.

[Azrael]

Can't say I agree with that, Az, because then you'd be picking 'profession' based on what it can do for your template, rather than because it's good for your RP.

I'd then have to raise the question of maturity and ask why the person's in JEDI - simply to play JA or roleplay. With regards to what you said, i dont see much difference there with what goes on now anyway so little really would change in that regard.

[Aslyn Denethorn]

That's not the case - we all have different templates based on our character's abilities as well as in the way we RP. You and I both RP Scholars, but my template looks nothing like yours. So which one of us loses out on that basis? You, or me? How about for the Healers? Or our Seers? Or the Stealth Specialists?

Besides, Jedi's skills aren't determined by their professions, but by the training they choose to undertake: your profession is what you do, and nothing more. Yes, there are certain skills that are better suited to that than others, but, for one thing, our profession doesn't require any skills whatsoever. Healers only really require Heal and Heal Others, Stealth Specialists usually require Sense and Mind Trick, but other than that...?

You really can't base an entire template on that, Azra'el.

[Azrael]

I'm not suggesting something horrific like choosing to be a saber god and having practically every high-end Force ability closed to you, or anything like half the Force abilities being no longer available. Simply something that displays a clearer degree of specialisation that what is in place now and prevents the maxing out of EVERYTHING, as is currently possible, regardless of class. I'm simply trying to suggest that if you chose a specific field of study, training or area of talent in the Force, it's supposed 'opposite' shouldn't be left open to you, IE you choose one power and sacrifice another.

[Aslyn Denethorn]

Then that should be a customisable option, not something determined by a set template.

[Amoné Fayden]

If Player A takes Force Heal to level 3 but also wants to take Force Grip at level 3 but is denied through RPMod because somebody up above believed the two should conflict with eachother... I'd (quite rightfully) expect a very unhappy Player A.

Restricting future Force Powers based on what a player has currently taken is very linear and more controlling than our current system. People would get shuffled down the same paths as everyone else. In our current method, an honest student has to argue until they're blue in the face to get a Force Power outside the "norm" while Knights award themselves with it without batting an eyelid.

Prevention is better than cure and as much as I often like going down the back-hand route, I'd hate to see the majority of honest members punished with a system because one or two people abused the last one.

As for the initial suggestion on XP applied to HP/FP. I'm still against it as that's a game mechanic who's only purpose is for "winning" and I can almost guarantee will not be used as a reflection of a character's physical properties.

For example, a puny bookworm Jedi allocation XP to HP to end up with more HP and Shields than a Battle-heavy 7 foot monstrosity of a Jedi. This would make no sense and using "he's stronger cuz he is more powerful in duh Force" will not cut it.

[Tomoran]

I believe it's damaging to attempt to base a system off of the potential abuses that lie within the current system. I think that any system has flaws and can be exploited and the only way to avoid the arms race of power systems and individual growth is to punish or otherwise deter those who do abuse said system and attempt to create a framework for force powers that encourages a realistic approach to skill-allocation for our characters. My thoughts on this have been pretty simple for a while:

-Abilities should cost more.
-There should be a limit to the number of level 4-5 powers that an individual can acquire before Level X and RPMod currently does a poor job of impeding on this kind of progress (and most of us are guilty of obtaining said overpowered level 4-5 abilities because we have plenty of points and they add exponential capacity)
-The scaling/mechanics of most abilities need work (Speed, Drain, Fury, Saber Throw, etc.)
-The 'class' system as it stands gives Sentinels by far the most bang for their buck, by the numbers. Guardians need a bit of a boost if we intend to keep the current layout.

[Baelin Raddyx]

Sorry, but I don't care how unhappy Player A is if he's unable to get a power he's really not able to learn.


There is no justification to excel in powers that conflict in your character's specialty.

A Jedi who devotes themselves to healing and as a result gets Heal/Heal others 4 or 5 should not be seen using powers like slow or storm. It really doesn't matter about trustworthiness! There are those out there who can be trusted to drive correctly but should we remove the law to suit them so they don't feel pressured by the bad driving of others? Of course not!

Azrael's suggestion makes alot of sense.



I think though I do agree with Amone about the Hp/Fp thing, it really would only serve as an ooc attempt to keep the characters able to be hit more. In my opinion FP and HP shouldn't even exist, and we should rp how we tire, rather than rely on dials and meters.

[Tomoran]

A Jedi who devotes themselves to healing and as a result gets Heal/Heal others 4 or 5 should not be seen using powers like slow or storm. It really doesn't matter about trustworthiness! There are those out there who can be trusted to drive correctly but should we remove the law to suit them so they don't feel pressured by the bad driving of others? Of course not!

Driving and Force Power allocation are not very analogous.

Firstly, 'specializations' in JEDI are optional. Not everybody commits themselves to the roleplay of a specialization and I don't foresee us attempting to press this kind of characterization anytime soon. I actually believe this to be better than pressing people to roleplay things that they don't have a good understanding of. It's really pretty easy to notice someone attempting to roleplay a healer with no understanding of medicine or how the body works. It's the equivalent of CSI Science or other relevant 'lets just say things that sound complicated' shtick (Hey! Force Theory sounds like this a lot)

Secondly, traffic laws exist to promote the safety of all people on the roads. This would be more analogous to compare them to how individuals use the Force. Believe it or not, rules of this sort already exist in the Jedi Code to prevent Jedi from using their abilities immaturely or for personal gain (hint: using the Force for personal gain is one of the ways to fall to the dark side!)

Thirdly, in the opinion of some, no Jedi should be learning 'slow' or 'storm' and mounting this position despite their availability and continued usage doesn't seem very pragmatic. We could all argue until we're blue in the face about the potential uses/non-uses or examples for or against with individuals who chose to have or not have them and we'll likely accomplish nothing.

Lastly, I incidentally agree that there should be powers that some individuals aren't able to learn. For example, I don't think that one twenty minute session with a Jedi Knight should be enough to get an Initiate Push or Pull 1. I've watched lessons that made me need to resort to drinking heavily in their simplicity. "You feel the Force then use it to push/pull the object GOOD JOB" /rpgivexp 2 /tell initiate k u can take push1 And I similarly think that a copy-paste job about a Force Power does not warrant sufficient investigation into a Force Power to take it as a Knight. "I've been studying Battle Meditation for six years ... just ... on my own. Nobody saw it but I swear I have been doing it. Here's some irrelevant plagiarized content to show my mastery of this complicated and extremely taboo skill that I cannot demonstrate any knowledge of firsthand."

But I doubt such considerations will be put into place. Since this power allocation is more in the realms of mechanics, I would rather we focus on the mechanics side of it (BUT TOMORAN, THIS IS A ROLEPLAYING CLAN) such that we can ever agree to, you know, do anything, because opinions are varied enough on these individual fronts but attempting to tackle something from both angles at the same time is going to deadlock forever. And ever.

[Amoné Fayden]

Sorry, but I don't care how unhappy Player A is if he's unable to get a power he's really not able to learn.

My point was who decides what powers conflict and from what angle do they base that on?
If HC decide anyone with Push is banished from taking Protect, then how many Jedi in the clan do you think would have Protect?
NONE!

That's just an example. But if EVERY Jedi was exempt from taking another power (be it at a certain level) then we're all going to end up with the same template.
On top of that we are unable to "unlearn" skills so if in the future a player feels that Force Meld has been a big waste of XP and now can't take Force Protect at level 2 or 3 because of it, then that's a really bad situation to be in. Easy to say "well they should have thought about that first" but really, we start assigning Force Powers from a very early age in JEDI, it's easy to feel different about your choice as your character progresses (or goes stale).

There are other things in place here.
The RP for example, how could you explain that?
Player 1: "Why don't you use Telekenisis to move that box?"
Player 2: "Well... I'd like to... but the Force has locked me out from learning that one because i'm pretty good at Absorbing aggressive Force powers. Oh Well."

On top of that, what would we do about the current member base who have the majority of Force powers enabled and active already? We can't just axe their template in a retcon attempt to make things more restrictive.


Aaanyway! I keep getting suckered into this sub-topic, Bad me!
Back to the issue of feeding people's health and force bars with XP!

[Sebastin Creed]

Okay, I couldn't resist (and because it is technically a little on topic) but I thought I'd throw in some thoughts on here. Though feel free to request I cease posting and perhaps start a new thread if you want:

Force Power Template - Progression and Restrictions. I think it's a good idea, but it has to be carefully calculated for progression but also set in a way that helps keep a form of difference to put in a bunch of variety within the JEDI characters.

(The Balancing act between Guard, Con and Sent can be discussed for change or removed completely).

• 
  [*] Jump
  [*] Push
  [*] Pull
  [*] Speed
  [*] Seeing[/b]

  For game mechanics and simple consideration I would say these things are something that can be considered 'Passive' or 'Natural' talents in *most* Jedi and can be opened based on LEVEL with the only restriction being you need to purchase the power before it to open the second.
  

  [*] Absorb
  
  [Requires Level 2 Push, Pull and Seeing]
  
  [*] Heal
  
  [Requires Level 2 Push, Pull and Seeing]
  
  [*] Protect
  
  [Requires Level 2 Push, Pull and Seeing - Locks Out Storm and Fury Levels 4-5 once Protect Level 4 is taken]
  
  [*] Mind Trick
  
  [Requires Seeing Level 2 to Open and Seeing Level 3(4?) to Open Mind Trick Levels 4-5]
  
  [*] Heal Others
  
  [Requires Heal Level 2 or 3 (reason for suggesting 2 is for the young apprentices of the Healers Path) Locks Out Storm Levels 4-5 and All Fury Levels]
  
  [*] Hold
  
  [Requires Both Push & Pull Level 2(3?) - Level Restriction on Levels 4-5]
  
  [*] Slow (Drain)
  
  [Requires Absorb Level 3 to Open]
  
  [*] Storm
  
  [Requires Hold Level 3, Locks Out Protect Levels 4-5 & Heal Others 4-5]
  
  [*] Fury
  
  [Higher Level restriction, cancels out All Heal Others and Heal Level 4-5]
  
  [*] Force Meld
  
  [Requires Absorb Level 2(3?) to Open and Slow Level 2 to Open Meld Levels 3-5]

  These powers is where it will get tricky, and I am only going to layout common sense in my understand on which powers should restrict others - you can suggest to add, delete or amend any of the ideas if you wish considering we are simply discussing the option
  
  Now, I'm just rushing through this (currently at work) so if I end up contradicting myself I apologize, but I think you will get the notion of my thoughts.
  

  [*] Saber Off
  
  [Level Restrictions - Levels 4-5 Requires Level 3 Speed and Seeing]
  
  [*] Saber Def
  
  [Level Resitrctions - Levels 4-5 Requires Level 3 Speed and Seeing]
  
  [*] Saber Throw
  
  [Requires Saber Off&Def Level 2 with Push&Pull Level 3]

[Serris K'Ral]

Not entirely a big fan of the above but that's just me. I would think that saber throw would require 'Hold' rather than push and pull but with your idea, I probably won't be able to buy absorb, heal or protect since I won't be getting anything beyond level 1 for push and pull for Serris.

I think we've gone off-track, considering this thread was supposed to be about distributing experience points to health/force not powers. I don't exactly want to waste XP on health/force considering we only really get 1-2 xp per class/training session, you wouldn't be able to buy as much powers as you'd like.

[Sebastin Creed]

Not entirely a big fan of the above but that's just me. I would think that saber throw would require 'Hold' rather than push and pull but with your idea, I probably won't be able to buy absorb, heal or protect since I won't be getting anything beyond level 1 for push and pull for Serris.

Not sure if that's something pre-determind in your mind or with Kih, but I would have thought you would be moving onto level 2 by now personally - but that's just me.

Again, like I said the idea behind it is to add a progressive scale. You could add Hold as a requirement for Saber Throw if you wanted, but I also believe Push and Pull is part of the technique with the Saber Throw, just as well as Hold I would think. Sure, Push is a burst power ability and Pull is more about 'Feeling' whatever you are using the power on. I also think Hold is about having a sustained control over the object for a longer period of time, so all three could be considered 'Part' of the Saber Throw ability.

That being said, if a Jedi was unable to get beyond the 'Level 1' aspect of Force Push and Pull, it's unlikely you would even be able to execute a Saber Throw or Force Hold - so it still works.