Force Power Restrictions and Progression Chart

[Sebastin Creed]

Hello all,

I've simply taken my post from the suggestion thread regarding using XP points to increase HP and FP, then placed it in this single standing thread about it to discuss ideas.

We have had threads about changes to the powers, additional costs and even about the 'Jedi Classes' themselves being amended.

So I've created my thoughts about how I think the restrictions on powers could work in accordance with powers I think that would cancel out other powers, or levels of said powers.

This is simply to broach the subject about over powering, creating variety amongst the JEDI members, considering an XP cap and bringing in a degree of 'thinking out your character' when it comes to spending your hard earned XP on powers you may want, or powers you are simply taking for the hell of it.

I've fallen into the category a few times so I'm not considering myself innocent or righteous with this post, I too will be restricting myself no doubt - I just think this would be something we should consider in an effort to add some building work to a template rather than simply accumulating XP over time and then spending it on something new.

Here was my first post:

Okay, I couldn't resist (and because it is technically a little on topic) but I thought I'd throw in some thoughts on here. Though feel free to request I cease posting and perhaps start a new thread if you want:

Force Power Template - Progression and Restrictions. I think it's a good idea, but it has to be carefully calculated for progression but also set in a way that helps keep a form of difference to put in a bunch of variety within the JEDI characters.

(The Balancing act between Guard, Con and Sent can be discussed for change or removed completely).

• 
  [*] Jump
  [*] Push
  [*] Pull
  [*] Speed
  [*] Seeing[/b]

  For game mechanics and simple consideration I would say these things are something that can be considered 'Passive' or 'Natural' talents in *most* Jedi and can be opened based on LEVEL with the only restriction being you need to purchase the power before it to open the second.
  

  [*] Absorb
  
  [Requires Level 2 Push, Pull and Seeing]
  
  [*] Heal
  
  [Requires Level 2 Push, Pull and Seeing]
  
  [*] Protect
  
  [Requires Level 2 Push, Pull and Seeing - Locks Out Storm and Fury Levels 4-5 once Protect Level 4 is taken]
  
  [*] Mind Trick
  
  [Requires Seeing Level 2 to Open and Seeing Level 3(4?) to Open Mind Trick Levels 4-5]
  
  [*] Heal Others
  
  [Requires Heal Level 2 or 3 (reason for suggesting 2 is for the young apprentices of the Healers Path) Locks Out Storm Levels 4-5 and All Fury Levels]
  
  [*] Hold
  
  [Requires Both Push & Pull Level 2(3?) - Level Restriction on Levels 4-5]
  
  [*] Slow (Drain)
  
  [Requires Absorb Level 3 to Open]
  
  [*] Storm
  
  [Requires Hold Level 3, Locks Out Protect Levels 4-5 & Heal Others 4-5]
  
  [*] Fury
  
  [Higher Level restriction, cancels out All Heal Others and Heal Level 4-5]
  
  [*] Force Meld
  
  [Requires Absorb Level 2(3?) to Open and Slow Level 2 to Open Meld Levels 3-5]

  These powers is where it will get tricky, and I am only going to layout common sense in my understand on which powers should restrict others - you can suggest to add, delete or amend any of the ideas if you wish considering we are simply discussing the option
  
  Now, I'm just rushing through this (currently at work) so if I end up contradicting myself I apologize, but I think you will get the notion of my thoughts.
  

  [*] Saber Off
  
  [Level Restrictions - Levels 4-5 Requires Level 3 Speed and Seeing]
  
  [*] Saber Def
  
  [Level Resitrctions - Levels 4-5 Requires Level 3 Speed and Seeing]
  
  [*] Saber Throw
  
  [Requires Saber Off&Def Level 2 with Push&Pull Level 3]

[Sebastin Creed]

Not entirely a big fan of the above but that's just me. I would think that saber throw would require 'Hold' rather than push and pull but with your idea, I probably won't be able to buy absorb, heal or protect since I won't be getting anything beyond level 1 for push and pull for Serris.

Serris's first reply about it.

[Sebastin Creed]

Not entirely a big fan of the above but that's just me. I would think that saber throw would require 'Hold' rather than push and pull but with your idea, I probably won't be able to buy absorb, heal or protect since I won't be getting anything beyond level 1 for push and pull for Serris.

Not sure if that's something pre-determind in your mind or with Kih, but I would have thought you would be moving onto level 2 by now personally - but that's just me.

Again, like I said the idea behind it is to add a progressive scale. You could add Hold as a requirement for Saber Throw if you wanted, but I also believe Push and Pull is part of the technique with the Saber Throw, just as well as Hold I would think. Sure, Push is a burst power ability and Pull is more about 'Feeling' whatever you are using the power on. I also think Hold is about having a sustained control over the object for a longer period of time, so all three could be considered 'Part' of the Saber Throw ability.

That being said, if a Jedi was unable to get beyond the 'Level 1' aspect of Force Push and Pull, it's unlikely you would even be able to execute a Saber Throw or Force Hold - so it still works.

My reply to Serris.

[Amoné Fayden]

I'm not a fan of any Power combination / restrictions, period.

Using the above as the example, we would never see a jedi with Protect and Storm as their learned abilities.

Using Lock-Outs removes diversity and shapes a cookie-cutter experience. It also means people MUST take certain powers they might not want, just to unlock one that they do want.

I understand the purpose is to forcibly prevent people from learning EVERYTHING. I just think it could be done another way rather than creating an RPMod mechanic that craps on diversity and unique templates.

Using myself as an example here.
If I had 100% say in the matter, i'd have never taken Grip and I don't care much for Push or Pull either. So in other words "Telekinesis" was originally meant to be a weakness for my character. However, things happen and we've all got to adapt.

Now, if I wanted to use this weakness as a means to argue being more powerful in something else, i'd hope that would be seen as acceptable.

"Okay, Amoné's asking for something different but looking at her character (RP) and template i'd say that she's given up other areas as a sacrifice so as to not appear amazing at everything."
*Stamp of approval*

That's how I feel it should be done. I'd rather not be told "tough luck" by RPmod for wanting specific Force Powers that have been coded as "contrasting".

Again, that's just my feelings on it.

[Sebastin Creed]

Now, if I wanted to use this weakness as a means to argue being more powerful in something else, i'd hope that would be seen as acceptable.

"Okay, Amoné's asking for something different but looking at her character (RP) and template i'd say that she's given up other areas as a sacrifice so as to not appear amazing at everything."
*Stamp of approval* .

If what you said there, was possible (with proper guidelines and consultations) - then my idea above would be redundant. However, what we currently have is everyone doing the exact same thing, with one student going slower than another because of different ideals or... lack of interest from mentors? So all in all, it's a case of throwing up something to try re-vamp that slightly/massive issues depending on how you look at it.

However, my idea isn't really well thought out, I'm sure someone could re-shape it better. If you look through it most of my proposals are low ended stuff but only restrict the levels 4-5 (the business end of the powers these days). Plus you need to consider just how open you want this to be...

Do we want Healers who have a tendency to enter a 'Fury' trance during a fight?

Someone who can't push or pull an object but are able to lift them and wave it around in the air. Sure we could say that's what makes it great, the differences - but 9/10 it's a probably not answer.

Again, the powers can be changed to be more suiting... for example, linking Drain to Absorb or Drain to Meld.

It's that or we cap the XP some where, or we all hush about changing anything in the system and deal with the fact that eventually after a few years, everyones going to have all the powers, bucket loads of XP and a desire to change Guardians and Consulars forever.

[Aslyn Denethorn]

Well, why not have dynamic lockouts? Allow people to choose their own blocks, say by giving everyone different potential configurations per level? Say, by level 10, you have a maximum of 3 abilities you can open up (thus, make available to purchase) to level 3, a certain number for level 2, and so on.

As your character advances in experience, you gain more potential unlocking capability but do so in a way that using all the high-level ones you have require you to lock out an ability to a certain extent. So, you can push everything to level 3, but that requires you to lock out level 4 and 5 for x number of powers until you advance in XP and level, thus slowly removing that requirement.

Ultimately, if you have a lockout system that allows for personal choice in what gets locked out, there are no cookie-cutter templates, and you can either advance some powers to their maximum but have penalties to others (locked out entirely or just low-levelled), or you can spread out your XP across lots of abilities, but be unable to train them to their fullest extent.

And this naturally changes as your level advances, so the more experienced you are, the less penalties you suffer for your choices. Thus making progression natural and providing more sauce for RPing.

[Sebastin Creed]

Aslyn,

I guess that is sort of what I am looking at - I mean, I'm in no way trying to lock out multiple abilities which everyone loves (like push and pull effecting speed, or sensing locking our an absorb ability... and that's just stupid) - just the powers which would incidently be considered an opposite to the powers you use.

For example... you would say that a Healer needs great focus, calm, serenity - so wouldn't you say the Fury ability contradicts that more than say... Drain or Force Meld?

I guess having a system where you had the choice on which abilities you locked out would really be sweet, perhaps something that can be apart of the new thread Tomoran just created about Talent Points? Using Talent points to open up the Level 4-5 of abilities - but maybe with a Cap of some sort to... I guess, force us to truly consider what we want from our character to the point where we then have a template which will reflect our carefully considered choices.

[Tomoran]

Most of us consider Fury to be much less an anger-based ability and more of a Trance or Valor sort of ability so suggesting that a healer could never utilize such an ability requires a firmer stance on what FURY is at this point in time.

I might request that more care is taken to consider if powers fall into control/sense/alter disciplines and how that might affect the potential growth in these disciplines.

[Sebastin Creed]

I guess we should change the name 'Fury' to something else then

All in all, it's sort of my way of working in a lock out system to stop full templates (sorry for those that dreamed of one day having that). However, again - your system states that it's impossible, which is great.

I would just like to see more care taken when powers are being considered. I've fallen into the trap in my early days but I've started to wise up to this and carefully think and implement my weaknesses as Sebastin.

I'd just like to see a system which brings that to the table, and has the members *think* about what they want as their talents... rather than going... well I can get this ability now so I can spar better, and I'll just wait for more XP to get this which *actually* has something to do with my character.

I guess a weak example would be that... I don't typically *need* Level 5 sensing unless I wanted to see all those who can Mind Trick up to Level 5 (because there are ways around that in a spar). However, I want Sebastin to use his natural talents as a Miraluka - so I maxed it out, sort of early in accordance with my role play. Some people wouldn't do that really... they would rather spend it in leveling all abilities out to Level 2 or 3, or something of the sort.

I hope you catch my meaning! I'm rambling now.

[Serris K'Ral]

Not entirely a big fan of the above but that's just me. I would think that saber throw would require 'Hold' rather than push and pull but with your idea, I probably won't be able to buy absorb, heal or protect since I won't be getting anything beyond level 1 for push and pull for Serris.

Not sure if that's something pre-determind in your mind or with Kih, but I would have thought you would be moving onto level 2 by now personally - but that's just me.

Again, like I said the idea behind it is to add a progressive scale. You could add Hold as a requirement for Saber Throw if you wanted, but I also believe Push and Pull is part of the technique with the Saber Throw, just as well as Hold I would think. Sure, Push is a burst power ability and Pull is more about 'Feeling' whatever you are using the power on. I also think Hold is about having a sustained control over the object for a longer period of time, so all three could be considered 'Part' of the Saber Throw ability.

That being said, if a Jedi was unable to get beyond the 'Level 1' aspect of Force Push and Pull, it's unlikely you would even be able to execute a Saber Throw or Force Hold - so it still works.

My reply to Serris.

I believe Serris and a few other characters are telekinectically inept (I have forgotten as to why I have push 1 but oh well) My character won't be having hold or throw but it comes down to push and pull being required to use three powers which are no where near related to telekinesis. (Absorb, protect and heal) I believe before being able to purchase anything you will need sense 1 since that is when an individual tends to feel the force for the 'first' time. This sort of restricts our characters and forces us into pouring exp into a power which our characters can't or prefer not to have in order to get an ability that might actually suit their character.

[Sebastin Creed]

Not sure if that's something pre-determind in your mind or with Kih, but I would have thought you would be moving onto level 2 by now personally - but that's just me.

Again, like I said the idea behind it is to add a progressive scale. You could add Hold as a requirement for Saber Throw if you wanted, but I also believe Push and Pull is part of the technique with the Saber Throw, just as well as Hold I would think. Sure, Push is a burst power ability and Pull is more about 'Feeling' whatever you are using the power on. I also think Hold is about having a sustained control over the object for a longer period of time, so all three could be considered 'Part' of the Saber Throw ability.

That being said, if a Jedi was unable to get beyond the 'Level 1' aspect of Force Push and Pull, it's unlikely you would even be able to execute a Saber Throw or Force Hold - so it still works.

My reply to Serris.

I believe Serris and a few other characters are telekinectically inept (I have forgotten as to why I have push 1 but oh well) My character won't be having hold or throw but it comes down to push and pull being required to use three powers which are no where near related to telekinesis. (Absorb, protect and heal) I believe before being able to purchase anything you will need sense 1 since that is when an individual tends to feel the force for the 'first' time. This sort of restricts our characters and forces us into pouring exp into a power which our characters can't or prefer not to have in order to get an ability that might actually suit their character.

Good, point taken. So we restrict it with something else if that's the general thought. I'm not wanting to lock out abilities, the template above is just an example - what power would you consider as something you would need to justify being able to unlock levels 3-5 of Absorb, Protect etc?

That's generally my desire with this idea, building blocks. Though with that said, the fact you are willing to get pushed around an awful lot to display a weakness is good, but just know that it is something that *may* end up being brought around and put at your feet to improve on... this is where the true role play and spontaneous changing of our community comes into play.

You may not want to take push and pull, and be forceful in your endeavour to not take beyond level 1. Though just know that you will constantly be tutored to improve it. However what I will say that, if you don't take push, pull or hold - what if Force Speed was another element to which you will have to consider restricting? I consider Force Speed to be very much near the land of Telekinesis considering you are using the force to burst yourself forward at a high speed... like you are the object, force pushing forward.

[Sasha Raven]

I'm not a fan of any Power combination / restrictions, period.

Sorry not my thing.

[Sebastin Creed]

I'm not a fan of any Power combination / restrictions, period.

Sorry not my thing.

Alright, anything additional to add though? Would be nice to gauge peoples likes and dislikes on the systems - but its hard to gain an insight from one liners.

[Sasha Raven]

A lot of things have been thrown around to manipulate the current XP or Power systems etc. It's all mechanic in focus. What isn't seems to massively hard to implement. It would be nice to see people bring their role play "A games" before worrying about any of this. That's not a slight or stab against anyone specific. It's not that I don't appreciate that people are thinking about how to "Better" the system. I simply think there are a lot of fundamentals that aren't being covered or addressed with our system (that works just fine and has for years.) I just want to see quality RP. I didn't care about more than the rp back in the JA+ days don't now. Hope that sheds some clarity on my own opinion.

[Sebastin Creed]

Which is a fair point and something I'm sure everyone will request (bringing your A Game).

The fact of the matter is that more and more people see a problem with the current system (considering it's been brought up a few times) - and I think certain improvements can be made.

My desire for some re-vamp is to have people look and explore character strengths and weaknesses more (Even I need to and want to improve on that). With these restrictions or the change in structure brought up by Tomoran gives a new angle to look at things, even if it's mechanical it will still effect you in game enough that it will manifest itself within the role play you do.

For Example within WoW again:

You have a Rogue who is all about stealth (Mind Trick and other supporting abilities) but has first aid to heal themselves (Heal Level 3) but because THAT is their strength and choice, you can be sure you won't suddenly see them healing another person out of the blue.

For me, that's just someone doing everything on a silly power trip... it takes away the uniqueness of another person who decided to become a devoted Healer in the first place.

We could have pros and cons about that line being true or not but for me we seem to get into a mood for taking everything in sight game wise and then trying to justify it in game. What I am basically trying to sell is the idea that, if there are some form of choices on the mechanics, you are then placed with a choice to make about your character and your role within the Order, what direction do you want to go with and how do you want to build a template unique to your preferences... because remember, you can't have everything. This can also be something to consider when talking about our species choices as well.

My example above isn't the solid form of what I want, it needs changed and edited of course - but the reason for the restrictions and lock outs, even if it's in the form of Aslyns idea where you get to be the one to choose what is locked out and what level 4-5s you open, will save people from taking powers that contradict their RP or Character Traits in game, regardless is you think it's down to the role play and trusting others. If you take away the temptation to go ahead and take everything then argue to justify it, then there won't be any issues with that kind of situation.

It's just something I think we should consider more of to add more dynamics to the role play. To be a healer, master of stealth, time lord and a seer all at the one time is just a bit... over the top. Also, should you go down that route and suddenly decide you want a chance is really a personal matter to discuss with the Council - because my take on that is, if you are bored with your character, you can't just change their history and talents in a day - chances are you need to start over again as someone new.