New Character Growth System (Talent Points, Merit Points)

[Sasha Raven]

The effort you have put into devising this is outstanding, however. I dislike it for many reasons already stated. Most importantly of all I don't overly mind the current XP system. I don't see why it needs to be changed. If mentors use the XP system correctly I don't see much need for any of this.

It's a complication that a lot of mentors wouldn't have the time to keep up with and I can see the transition being ......chaotic to say the least.

[Eugen Darkrider]

Aslyn, I believe you have a point there. But that is why, (in my faint understanding) Tomoran added the Merit Points in his sugestion. Because (once again, in my faint understanding) at the level cap. you 'won't' receive 'monthly' Talent Points. But that doesnt mean you stop receiving merit points which, you will be able to transform into one talent point at whatever the number will be. So basically nothing will be caped. Except when you will receive the monthly talent point.

And seriously now, do you really see people waiting 'months and months' to just get talent points without doing nothing? Not only that, but some powers require more talent points than others.

So I for one. (whenever I get back, ugh) don't see myself waiting 2 months for one force power.

Also,
you may be right about that, students going to masters after pay-day.

But what did they do into that month? technically they should learn. Right?

Not only that, but they receive 1 talent point, so it means only '1' force power.

Either way. even if this suggestion has its flaws. that's why it is a suggestion.

So I still agree with it.

EDIT:
You're right Sasha. Very, very right. But if you think about it, this is almost the same with the XP system we have now. Only that it is way more easier to understand. And it gives one more 'way' to receive that XP in time.

Transition might be chaotic. But all in all, I see this suggestion to be more better than the XP system we have now in the long run.

[Aslyn Denethorn]

Better doesn't mean it should be applied. Simply means we need to rethink our current system more and come up with something better than this

[Sai Akiada]

I'm much in agreement with Amoné and Aslyn on this one. Good effort but I think I still prefer the current system. This new version seems to me to be less accommodating to individual progression. I may be reading into it wrong but it looks like it holds back those that put in the time and effort and yet rewards those that don't with some sort of basic entitlement. Correct me if I'm wrong.

As it stands however, I still prefer the current XP system. It would just help if everyone conformed to the XP granting rules stated in the guidelines.

[Amoné Fayden]

In the end, this is very similar to our current system where XP (MP) is collected to spend on Force Powers (by turning them into TP). But instead of that alone we are being awarded 1TP each month for doing absolutely nothing.

So in essence, people would "level" faster and gain force powers quicker with less effort required on their part. Then on top of that we add a brick wall in front of them to stop advancement once they hit the level cap for their rank.

I just don't think this solves anything, especially any issues revolving around XP Hording, the "Level = Promotion" mentality and Assigning Force Powers that haven't be adequately trained.

[Tomoran]

On the issue of the TP being gained over time as long as an individual meeting the requirement of MP being a 'grant' that allows individuals to get away with doing 'nothing'

• The individual still needs to attend at a level of involvement that allows them to accumulate the MP needed to count them as 'active' for them to qualify for this TP grant
• I would suggest that you will very seldom see Intiates around level 10, Padawans over level 16, Knights can go anywhere it just takes a while, obviously. And I am talking about the CURRENT system. Initiates floundering until level nine or ten isn't individualism it's a FLAW of the current system. We've spent pages and pages debating what to do with individuals and I have had plenty of private talks with people unsatisfied with the point gains of Initiates who manage to work their way up to such a point.
• The 'automatic' TP is a simple amount that reinforces roleplay. Since people seem to suggest that their characters are in the training wing or archives or whatever when they're not on - I mean, we don't go back to our rooms and sleep indefinitely until we log back in, right? Roleplay takes up the parts of our character's lives that we choose to inhibit. They still have to eat, have to study, have to sleep - even if we aren't roleplayng this. I was suggesting that over a year you would expect someone with constant study to have a basic amount of learning accomplished every year. There's the additional option of supplementing this with the MP system.

On the subject of 'forcing' individuals down similar paths or inhibiting the potential for creativity

I'm having a hard time really grasping this one, to be honest. Force powers are diverse and have different expenses and different uses and individuals can choose to attempt to gain them at their own will. The issue of students or knights taking powers that they haven't really 'earned' is more of a Council or Roleplay Division (nonexistant) issue and no amount of modifying RPmod will change this unless you lock every power to everybody and require an application or submission to suggest that you've gained a particular power (which will certainly logjam just about everything) so you have to do one of a few things: accept that it's going to happen from time to time and don't kneecap the system because of it, punish those who do it or change the system as I suggested to make it so that power purchases must be approved (though it's possible to undo power selections, it's just kind of annoying to do)

On the topic of this not incentivizing individuals (more carrot, less stick)

Frankly I think JEDI right now is all carrot and no stick. I think a little bit of stick might be a nice change of pace. You're worried about activity going down as a result of people not having the XP dangling in front of them but activity is already low. People should be coming on the server to have fun, to interact, to play, to develop their characters. If these things grants XP, good - but people aren't playing. I wanted to suggest a system where people could come on to find their own kind of entertainment and feel free to interact and act and not focus on their XP growth and instead just enjoy the experience (not the points, the act of being there)

I talked a lot with Evan and some others about how JEDI compares to roleplaying communities (in that it doesn't) and I can't really elaborate without saying some mean things so I will suggest that I really think there needs to be some kind of change in how this system works because I don't see the situation magically improving itself.

On the topic of individuals who advance from Initiate to Padawan early, or from Padawan to Knight early

It's possible that, given Jesse's wanting a higher max power - and the idea that growth shouldn't be determined by rank but by relative complexity of the subject nature, that the values could be flat by numbers. For instance, levels 1-5 could take 1 month, 6-15 could take 2, 16-20 could take 3, 21-25 could take 4. This could be individual of rank. Numbers can easily be adjusted - that's how tweaking a system works. Overhauling one, as in moving from XP to TP and MP, is more important to me. If I thought we could just 'tweak' the XP system, I would've already suggested it (and have in the past)

[Sai Akiada]

If I thought we could just 'tweak' the XP system, I would've already suggested it (and have in the past)

The point I was trying to make was that, there is nothing wrong with the current system in itself. The issue is that hardly anyone follows the guidelines put in place. This to me suggests that it doesn't matter what you change with the system, unless you address the way in which people utilise it, the same issues will persist.

[Illrian Damaris]

I kind of have to agree with Sai on this.
XP System isn't exactly bad, and even though I like the idea of the TP/MP thing, it doesn't fully matter. The system will get abused, whether its the current one or a new one. The only way you can stop the abuse of it, is to do a complete uhaul of things. Those who constantly abuse it, get their positions removed, and if they are able to show they can be trusted to follow the rules again brought back...if they persist after coming back, then remove their character, and either they have to make a new one or they simply leave.

That is the only way you're going to be able to deal with abuse, is to actually bring down a harsh enough punishment so that people will realize they can't just ignore the guidelines and rules. If they do that now, then they'll do that with a new system, an updated system...only two ways to solve it.
1) Remove any system.
2) Bring down harsh punishment.

[Amoné Fayden]

The 'automatic' TP is a simple amount that reinforces roleplay. Since people seem to suggest that their characters are in the training wing or archives or whatever when they're not on - I mean, we don't go back to our rooms and sleep indefinitely until we log back in, right?

I don't see how giving somebody something for nothing is reinforcing Role Play though. I do agree that our characters do more than sleep until we next log on. However when you're not on the server Role Playing... You're not on the server Role Playing. Stating the obvious there, I know! But what I mean is if you are not actively contributing by server presence and role play then why should you be rewarded?

What about the Initiates, Padawans and Knights that go away from the community for like 2-4 months without a single message to the Clan or HC? They get to come back, as they usually do, with 2-4 Force Points as a reward for "their contributions to JEDI".

I'm not saying that people ought to be punished for not showing up every day. I just don't believe they should be rewarded for not showing up.
Freebies already encourage laziness. I don't have access to Knight journals but I'd put money on the fact that you could probably count on ONE hand the amount of Knights that actually go through lengths to document and then role play their advances and further studies. They get their XP wage and BAM! 1 point to Storm please!

As for JEDI's wavering attendance over the last month specifically. I wouldn't contribute that to our current XP system at all.
A bad workman always blames his tools, so I think I'll need to agree with Sai and Illrian in that it's the workman that needs fixing, not the tools.

[Aslyn Denethorn]

The problem with the system, at present, isn't the system but, rather, the way we use it. You say it's all too much carrot and no stick, Tomoran, but that isn't a consequence of the system - that's the Knighthood. Initiates have free rein to get as many lessons as they want, only relying on the approval of the Knight/Master providing them to get as much XP as they can choke down. Padawans? Technically the same system, they just need to get approval from their Mentors. And, really, how much do we check on this? We all trust that the student earned the XP, and that the Knight/Master didn't simply have a sparring fest and dished out XP as a result, and we don't think to check anything beyond that.

Seriously, I teach a class with at least 6-8 people attending every time. So far, I've only had two Masters come to me and ask me what the student had learned, and how well they'd participated, since XP is contingent on the student gaining experience from what they do. Classes, simulations, exercises - if you don't learn anything, why do you get XP? Our problem is that we don't check and we have no oversight surrounding what we teach, when and to whom. And as long as you're not dishing out 4-5 XP at a time, it's rarely picked up.

The issue's not the system: it's that we don't use the system properly. I include myself in that, as well as everybody else around here. We expect students to be proactive, to seek out training and to learn what they can. Where we fail as a clan is to allow that to be the totality of the experience. Worried that students go to class just to get XP? Well, why wouldn't they? They know we'll dish it out regardless. We haven't developed a system of administration whereby we, the Knighthood, act responsibly and just try to encourage RPing for the sake of RPing. RPing shouldn't equal XP, but it does, because we've made it so. It's been like that for years.

What changes do we need? Let's face it, changing the template or the system by which XP is allocated is irrelevant: that's a cosmetic choice, and is about character flexibility and having the ability to pick up different abilities at our own pace, rather than a template-based one. That's all these discussions are about. What we need to change is how the system works, not the system itself.

We need better oversight: we need to stop handing out XP like candy, we need to make sure students actually learn from the experience, and that they grow towards Knighthood as a result. Otherwise we end up with 'Senior' Padawans who haven't got a hope in hell's chance of being promoted, waltzing around with XP that doesn't adequately reflect their ability to serve among the Knighthood. The Council needs to jump on us more for that, and perhaps make the rules/guidelines clearer, and we absolutely must follow them.

Until that's done, this particular kind of discussion is moot, because it won't solve the problem at all. The system works. We don't.

[Illrian Damaris]

You know, I have to agree with Aslyn. I'm not in any position to judge anyone, despite what my last post may have come across as. However I can say that with the Master checking up on if the student truly deserves the XP or not is a really good start to fixing the problem with XP abuse.

I can say that Aayla does something of this, she usually won't apply any of the XP that another Knight, or even herself, may grant me until she knows I actually learned something. Most the time, for example when it comes to either FMT or MED, if the teacher posts about my attendance and then adds the XP at the end, that XP won't ever even get a look at until I have shown that I truly learned something and took something from the class, instead of sitting in the far corner, quiet, just to get the XP.

That's how the system, personally, should work.. at least as a starting point. I personally like the idea of the Mentor's actually checking up before applying the XP, because if the student didn't learn anything, why should they get the reward? They shouldn't, simple as that. If I didn't learn something from FMT, then I sure as hell shouldn't get the XP for my character being there.

A good example: One day during FMT, I could barely sit down and listen because I kept having to do something.. so at the end of the class, I actually PM'ed Aslyn and asked if he could hold back the XP because I knew I didn't deserve it. I knew I didn't learn anything from the class, because I wasn't even at my computer to learn anything, and so I didn't want the reward of it. That is the first stepping stone to fixing the actual problem.

[Tomoran]

What about the Initiates, Padawans and Knights that go away from the community for like 2-4 months without a single message to the Clan or HC? They get to come back, as they usually do, with 2-4 Force Points as a reward for "their contributions to JEDI".

You keep saying this, but people don't get points unless they get the minimum MP required to get those points. So you can't leave for 2 months and get things while you're gone. You have to show up and be present to earn the TP. If your activity is too low to get the MP necessary, you don't get your 'free' TP.

[Amoné Fayden]

You have to show up and be present to earn the TP. If your activity is too low to get the MP necessary, you don't get your 'free' TP.

I'm not talking about the Merit Points. I'm talking about this:

From here, things change up. Initiates gain an inherent ONE talent point per month (IC year)

That's the freebie I'm talking about.
Not the extra TP gained by converting MP. (which is what our current system is, really. MP = XP.)

[Alkur Tekeil]

You have to show up and be present to earn the TP. If your activity is too low to get the MP necessary, you don't get your 'free' TP.

I'm not talking about the Merit Points. I'm talking about this:

From here, things change up. Initiates gain an inherent ONE talent point per month (IC year)

That's the freebie I'm talking about.
Not the extra TP gained by converting MP. (which is what our current system is, really. MP = XP.)

As I understand it though, one MP isn't all that much, especially as levels progress. Much like the 20-25XP JKs get per month, its nice, and can eventually add up, but ultimately its not unlocking new levels, and thus getting higher level powers.

[Tomoran]

And on the topic of individual behavior being an acceptable cure to this particular issue: I don't think that's asking enough.

I think that individual behavior and utilization of what we have is a necessary in any and all functions of JEDI. We've sort of come to a point where we are expected to self-regulate but there aren't many people who want to go in the same direction. I think that knowledge of Star Wars is a necessary function of roleplaying a Jedi. I think that any Knight should be able to tell you the forms, the marks, the disciplines, various important planets, points of JEDI canon history, etc. - but these things don't make an individual able to roleplay a Jedi objectively.

JEDI exists as a form of entertainment. It's (supposed to be) a roleplaying community where people concoct a character that they want to play in order to subject them to the good (and bad) times of the Temple. The growth from getting handed your saber to crafting your own to kneeling to coming home from trying assignments. I think that people do find entertainment in JEDI but I think they derive that from many different ways.

If we push to make classes more in-depth and require assignments and make them mandatory for advancement then you might find individuals who don't want to find recreation in the form of sitting for an hour and then writing assignments to get points as their form of leisure. JEDI exists as a form of entertainment. The means by which we make our characters interact should be entertaining. Classes should be entertaining. Missions should be entertaining. If you aren't having fun, why are you playing?

Solid roleplay experience will build the foundation for a character. They need to interact and grow in the Temple setting to earn any kind of reputation or credibility as capable individuals. Their experiences in classes and missions help to stretch the boundaries of their capabilities and give them and others the chance to view their relative progress as a measure of what they and their character can do in something where they're asked to be responsible. If an individual or a character cannot act in a manner befitting a Jedi or if individuals have to rig outcomes or play 'dummy' missions to build credibility then we'll not gain credible Jedi.

Experience is a count. It's an artificial measure of relative power that doesn't mean diddly in the sum of a player and characters overall abilities in areas. We have developed it as a currency, something that was developed to quantify growth and make it something individuals could obtain in concrete ways. Before it, individuals would train and interact and from time to time Masters would grant them 'points' for their work into certain powers unofficially (to their old ////// templates)

Even before that, there were no templates. There was simply a time, a place ... a day where you had done enough training that your Mentor sent you a tell OOCly saying, 'Okay, you can unlock push 1.'

Experience as an idea and as a system is fine, you're right. To suggest that the solution is for us to agree (for once) and find a way to apply a system that would see us to hold students more credible (but who's holding us more credible?) doesn't address the issue that we aren't likely going to agree and there's nothing coming down from up top that makes us have to agree. Half of us could want one thing, half could want another - and we'd be where we were yesterday. Tomorrow wouldn't be any different.