New Character Growth System (Talent Points, Merit Points)

[Tomoran]

Level/XP Overhaul Draft 1

I think JEDI focuses too much on experience. The very way in which classes, missions and development are set up are as a proxy to gaining experience points such that you can ‘continue’ your character forward (higher level means more powerful, right?) and the mechanics and standing policies of the clan reinforce this viewpoint.

I think this is a detriment to our goals and the processes that create and shape our characters experiences.

Now it gets tricky. Remove experience points as we know them, the XP costs of powers on the template and replace them with a smaller, simpler number called growth points or talent points. For instance, someone who is freshly initiated to the Order gains ONE talent point (TP) and it is applied to Saber Offense 1 (Costs 1 Talent Point) and stands in the very same place that an Initiate would before this fix.

From here, things change up. Initiates gain an inherent ONE talent point per month (IC year) up to a maximum of Level 7 (Or nine talent points, allowing them level 1 jump/push/pull/speed/sense/saber off/saber def) with room for variance should they choose to branch into other skills (though their TP costs may vary, for instance, I plan on having the ‘specialization’ powers cost more)

Padawans gain a level every two months up to a maximum of level 16. Note that levels gain progressively more talent points a level. To compensate, it takes Knights a default of three months to advance from one level to the next, up to a maximum of level 21. Levels 22 to 25 are reserved for Masters though it takes them a default of four months to advance in level.

So, a recap:
Initiates (maximum TP of nine (Level Seven), level every month)
Padawans (maximum TP of 34 (Level Sixteen), level every two months)
Knights (maximum TP of 55 (Level 21), level every three months)
Masters (maximum TP of 75 (Level 25), level every four months)

Power Costs:
Jump: 1/1/1/2/2 = 7 total
Push: 1/1/1/1/2 = 6 total
Pull: 1/1/1/1/1 = 5 total
Speed: 1/1/1/1/1 = 5 total
Seeing: 1/1/1/2/2 = 7 total
30 Total

Absorb: 2/2/2/3/3 = 12 total
Heal: 1/1/2/2/2 = 8 total
Protect: 1/1/2/2/3 = 9 total
Mind Trick: 1/2/2/3/3 = 11 total
Heal Others: 2/2/2/2/2 = 10 total
50 total

Hold: 1/1/2/3/3 = 10 total
Slow: 2/2/2/2/2 = 10 total
Storm: 2/2/3/3/4 = 14 total
Fury: 2/2/2/2/2 = 10 total
Meld: 2/2/2/2/2 = 10 total
54 total

Saber Offense: 1/1/1/2/2 = 7 total
Saber Defense: 1/1/2/3/3 = 10 total
Saber Throw: 2/2/2/2/2 = 10 total
27 total
161 Grand Total

TP Amounts Per Level
1 1
2 2
3 3
4 4
5 5
6 7
7 9
8 11
9 13
10 15
11 18
12 21
13 24
14 27
15 30
16 34
17 38
18 42
19 46
20 50
21 55
22 60
23 65
24 70
25 75

But Tomoran, some people are more active than others. Shouldn’t they be able to grow at different rates according to the effort they put in? OH YES, I think so, too. However, I want to implement a secondary system called Merit Points (MP) that replace the existing Experience Points and are awarded for things like attending classes/lessons/missions that accrue on your record for activity-based or effort-based things one does in-character that would contribute to their growth. These points would be difficult to obtain and would not allow individuals to bypass the maximum level for their rank but can expediate the process of moving toward that rank.

For instance, say it takes 50 Merit Points to get one Talent Point (the numbers I haven’t decided on yet, sorry) and an Initiate accrues 50 Merit Points in their first three months, that Initiate is elevated to the next level immediately (to 4) and when the regularly scheduled advance comes, they simply go up to the next (to 5) as if the Merit Points hadn’t interfered in the calendar at all, this means that if an Initiate or Padawan or Knight or Master is active and does things to warrant these points (which will hopefully be harder to achieve and reflect growth and actual efforts to increase server activity and character growth) they will gain more TP quicker and have access to abilities to flesh out their template if they truly wish to push forward.

Note that this system has no influence on the current class system however it DOES do away with power restrictions by class or level. Obviously, the standing rules that Initiates cannot go over level one without permission or padawans cannot go over level three without permission would stand but otherwise all powers at level one would be open to a level one character. If an individual puts a point into something, the next level becomes available one level later. For instance, if one obtains Heal 1 at level 9, Heal 2 will unlock when they are level 10, no matter what class they are.

Of course I would love to see more classes but that’s another issue for another day. Now, the costs of the powers are skewed strangely but I tried to make it according to relative power strength (For instance, I think pull 4 and 5 are great but the bonuses from protect 3 to protect 4 FAR outshine the benefits from pull 3 to pull 4 because bad scaling, etc.)

Anyway, my weekly idea and it has been a while since I had one of these shot down. Let the discussion commence.

What would MY template look like?
Jump4: 5
Push3: 3
Pull3: 3
Speed1: 1
Seeing4:5

Absorb0: 0
Heal4: 6
Protect0: 0
MT4: 8
Heal Others2: 4

Hold1: 0
Slow0: 0
Storm4: 10
Fury0: 0
Meld2: 4

Saber Offense0: 0
Saber Defense0: 0
Saber Throw0: 0
49

[Sebastin Creed]

What about a cap or does this plan still have the inevitability that one day you will have a full template?

Also, what if a character was away for a full month - do you plan to withdraw the TP for those who are simply not around where those that are just simply unable to get on server for a variety of reasons would accumulate TPs?

I guess it seems you are basically expanding the Knights progression system, simplified it for everyone and put it across the board which for me does work. The other thread with my idea was about trying to create a thinking process where restrictions could end up being inflicted... or a cap is placed.

I guess for reference, you can look at the World of Warcraft talent tree. You have different specialisations and abilities... like a talent tree. It works towards the kind of person you want to be...

For example, a Healer would have all the 'Team working' aspects and healing abilities.

Stealth (rogue) would have one, Guardians (warrior) would have one also.

I know people want to have a slice of everything, but I think that's where possibly of really re-vamping our system would be... passive abilities... natural abilities... then the specialised ones. With your system, it would work (as your system sounds a bit like the WoW progression - Each Level grants 1 Talent Point).

Just something to consider maybe. I like the sound of it, just need to hear more about how it fleshes out.

[Tomoran]

What about a cap or does this plan still have the inevitability that one day you will have a full template?

The maximum amount that a level 25 character has is 75 and to get all of the powers one would need about 160 points, so nobody will ever have a full template. Ever.

Also, what if a character was away for a full month - do you plan to withdraw the TP for those who are simply not around where those that are just simply unable to get on server for a variety of reasons would accumulate TPs?

I think that one should need to meet a minimum amount of merit points to earn their progression.

I guess it seems you are basically expanding the Knights progression system, simplified it for everyone and put it across the board which for me does work. The other thread with my idea was about trying to create a thinking process where restrictions could end up being inflicted... or a cap is placed.

I guess for reference, you can look at the World of Warcraft talent tree. You have different specialisations and abilities... like a talent tree. It works towards the kind of person you want to be...

For example, a Healer would have all the 'Team working' aspects and healing abilities.

Stealth (rogue) would have one, Guardians (warrior) would have one also.

I know people want to have a slice of everything, but I think that's where possibly of really re-vamping our system would be... passive abilities... natural abilities... then the specialised ones. With your system, it would work (as your system sounds a bit like the WoW progression - Each Level grants 1 Talent Point).

Just something to consider maybe. I like the sound of it, just need to hear more about how it fleshes out.

Answered your inquiries in here. I must say that there's a bit of MMO talent points in here but RPGs have been using this kind of talent progression for a long time so I don't think it's specifically an homage to WoW, heh.

[Sebastin Creed]

Yeah of course, I'm just more fresh with the WoW talent trees than that of anything else hehe.

[Amoné Fayden]

I normally wouldn't mind a system like this in other games but...
Eeeerrrghh... Difficult to explain why without sounding rant-esque but i'll do my best.

I can't decide if this sort of system would benefit JEDI or not. The first thing that came to mind was that it could lead to members becoming deflated, unmotivated and stale. There would be large gaps of time where nothing is achieved or "rewarded" to egg them on.

Currently, XP is often a morale booster for some. I know i've felt that way sometimes. I don't look at XP as a means of saying "YES! Now i'm almost ahead of this or that person in XP! Now I can put on my superiority hat and act like a douche!"
I look at it as: "Yes! Now i'm 10XP closer to finally being eligible to apply a Force Power i've been RPing for months! I can show physical results from time spent building up to it!" (Pending approval from mentor.)
It gives me something to drive for.

If I knew that there's no point in puting extra effort in because XP (or TP in this case) is awarded based on time... Then i'd ask what's the point in going that extra mile? I could just sit back and relax and assign points for doing nothing other than kicking back. Knight style!

The Merit Points (MP) you mentioned Tomoran almost countered this but I still feel slowing down progress too drastically will be damaging to clan morale. Then we get extensive absenses and "downtime". It would all depend on how difficult it would be to get MP.
Yes, yes, yes - RP is it's own reward but many XP-granting events such as classes require students to stop RPing with friends just to sit and listen for an hour. XP is a just reward for that. Remove the reward then what's the point of interrupting good RP to go to a class where you can't really interact and just have to sit and watch the screen?

It's definitely not an easy fix. That's for sure!

On one hand you have the "Need more discipline" side.
On the other hand you have the "Lets change the whole RPmod system to stop them! YEHAW!" side.

lets say, hypothetically, that somebody said: "For a trial period of several months, there needs to be some broadcasted OFFICIAL internal OOC training for Knights and Padawans on what is acceptable when it comes to Levelling, what Force Powers are Acceptable and realistic, correct Criteria and eligibility for Knighthood, XP grants and amounts etc. In order to remove cloudiness on the topic and make sure everyone is 100% aware of JEDI Policy, Rules and Standards."

I did say Hypothetically didn't I?

[Illrian Damaris]

Personally, I think this system would actually work a whole lot more then the current XP system we're running. Right now, we're running an XP system, and there's no cap how much XP a student can make, yet there is for Knight's/Master's. This actually makes the students seek XP, and they base a lot of their RP off of that lust...I know a few students only RP for this, and I'll admit when I first joined I was as well.

This system actually helps keep things a bit more orderly, and it also allows to ensure that people come on and RP just to RP, and not lusting for XP. It brings the concept for the way Knight's and Master's get their XP down to the student body, and having two completely different systems I really think isn't the best idea.

[Amoné Fayden]

It brings the concept for the way Knight's and Master's get their XP down to the student body

Is that really a good thing?
Some Knights host events for the same fashion Initiates and Padawans join them.
For XP.

I don't think XP hording would change with a new system. That's a player mentality issue.

I seriously can't get off the fence on this idea! Toughy.

Like:

- There won't be "locked" force powers.
- Progression would at least be consistent.
- It's good to see some Force Points only costing 1TP and not 10TP or anything unachievable.


Dislike:

- Less effort put into learning abilities. A sort of "wait for payday" scheme.
- Does not remove the fact people will assign abilities they haven't earned realistically through daily/weekly RP. (Like Tomoran's 1x 20 min lesson issue he mentioned before.)
- The Level caps are very low. An initiate that performs better than a Padawan through attendance and attitude is cramped by a low Level cap (7 in the above example) simply because he/she does not have a Master.
- Removing XP from the less interactive, stoic Classes will result in attendance hits.
- If 1 Merit Point has a low cash-in value due to the required amount of MP's needed to add 1 TP, then collecting them isn't worth the effort.

Of course it's nice to be selfless and do things just for the RP. But I still believe there needs to be a purpose. A carrot to dangle. Something to set as a reward for reaching a goal. Removing future prospects can be very damaging. That's why some Knights fail and quit or make new characters. They run out of things to look forward to.

So I don't outright hate the suggestion. I just think it will further encourage laziness. Something of which we can already see.

[Sared Kilvan]

So I don't outright hate the suggestion. I just think it will further encourage laziness. Something of which we can already see.

Then get rid of monthly XP grants of any kind. No 'payday' whatsoever.

[Amoné Fayden]

Then get rid of monthly XP grants of any kind. No 'payday' whatsoever.

Ahaaaa, but then we're back to our current system where you earn what you make with no monthly freebies.

[Tomoran]

I think he meant from all members.

[Ctathos]

Mostly in response to Amone's dislikes:

A monthly grant would discourage going to classes just for experience which I believe is part of the point of this suggestion. Although I am no longer active I really like this suggestion - it's simple and has merit. Perhaps the less interactive, stoic classes need some more interactive, entertaining teachers? I can recall when both ethics and morals and saber arts were in full attendance and people went out of their way to attend although they knew experience was minimal.

I didn't read the entire first post initially but going back through I found what I was looking for, Merit Points. Extra-curricular items or special events (which I take it don't really happen anymore save some missions [they still do those right?]).

I agree with Amone about level caps seeming a bit low and perhaps the total being a bit low as well. I do however like the time progression but am not too keen on doing the math in my head - Tomoran can you add the 'cumulative time' required for each rank if no merit points were ever given?

[Tomoran]

Initiated and set to Level 1
Level 1-2 in one month
Level 2-3 in one month
Level 3-4 in one month
Level 4-5 in one month
Level 5-6 in one month
Level 6-7 in one month
Total Initiate Time Maximum with no MP: 6 months

Padawan'd
Level 7-8 in two months
Level 8-9 in two months
Level 9-10 in two months
Level 10-11 in two months
Level 11-12 in two months
Level 12-13 in two months
Level 13-14 in two months
Level 14-15 in two months
Level 15-16 in two months
Total Padawan Time Maximum with NO MP: 18 months

Knight'd
Level 16-17 in three months
Level 17-18 in three months
Level 18-19 in three months
Level 19-20 in three months
Level 20-21 in three months
Total Knight Time Maximum with NO MP: 15 months

Masters
Level 21-22 in four months
Level 22-23 in four months
Level 23-24 in four months
Level 24-25 in four months
Total Master Time Maximum with NO MP: 16 months

I'm always willing to wiggle the numbers to fit a more ideal experience. I thought these amounts seemed alright, perhaps Knight's progression being a little too fast. I'd also be willing to provide more total TP if 75 seems too low, but I would prefer it not go over about 120 maximum tops. I'd just need to use fancy math skills to find a progressive system to match that total.

[Eugen Darkrider]

Now.. as a matter of fact. I actually like 'this' idea.

I actually support it fully.

So, each month you get one 1 talent point. (initiate wise) for doing nothing.
This talent point you can add it to a force power. Now, if you want to take another force power you must wait another month.

BUT. Here comes the nice part. And Kudos to you Tomoran for it.

If you don't want to 'wait' one month, you basically can go to classes and do what you do now to get XP. But instead of XP you get Merit Points, which, at a particular number of accumulated Merit Points, you will be able then to transform it into an 'extra' Talent Point.

AND. Each rank has a limit, to how many months you can just.. 'wait' to receive talent points. (Excluding Merit Points I believe). So you wont just wait 3 years and Bam you are one overpowered Jedi. Instead, you have to be active and RP in order to.. well progress in rank.

Tomoran, 'One' thing I have to say about this.
What happens if an initiate lets say, will become a padawan, before reaching level 7. Will they get 1 talent point per month still? or the padawan restriction applies? (1 talent point per 2 months).

And one more thing, what will happen to our current template?

Either way! I'll say it again.

/support.

[Illrian Damaris]

Tomoran, 'One' thing I have to say about this.
What happens if an initiate lets say, will become a padawan, before reaching level 7. Will they get 1 talent point per month still? or the padawan restriction applies? (1 talent point per 2 months).

Actually, that is a good question for all around...whether an Initiate becomes a Padawan before level 7, or a Padawan becomes a Knight before level 16. So I have to reinforce Eugen's question, what will happen to that person? Will they stay on the same plan (i.e. Initiates once every month) until they reach the level limit of that rank, or will they just begin using the rank they now obtain?

In case that was confusing...
If an Initiate becomes a Padawan while he's only level 5, will he still be using the Initiate level-up plan until he reaches level 7, then use the Padawan plan, or will he just start off using the Padawan plan?

[Aslyn Denethorn]

Honestly, I dislike this system, purely because it regulates growth and development to the extent that it's practically regimented: you cannot be at level x until you have spent number of months/years y within the clan, and that's preposterous, particularly given that activity levels and IC development are completely different for every individual.

Yes, I can agree with the idea that we need to stop students coming to classes just for XP, and give them opportunities for wanting to participate, but frankly, Masters have started denying XP to students who only go to class and sit in silence for the duration of it anyway, and I think that's a much better way to deal with the situation. And if a student does participate fully in a class, I don't care about their reasons for going to it in the first place - the outcome's more important than their intentions, I feel.

And I totally agree with Illrian - if we do monthly grants, you're going to see the Knighthood swarmed by students 1-2 days after payday, wanting to be taught abilities that they can now afford to learn. That doesn't allow for much in the way of long-term development, and I feel it's the wrong approach to take, personally.

That and I don't feel that regulating templates by never having enough Talent Points to do whatever you want is a good idea. Yes, it would be nice never to see people having full templates (nobody ever fully masters their Force abilities), but to my mind, doing it by simply never giving them the equivalent TP is the wrong way to go. I think locking out skills manually or altering templates to allow for synergies or use of prerequisite skills would be better, simply because it isn't so limiting. Let's face it - half the fun is in being able to grow your character over time, and I mean that both in terms of their abilities AND their personality. This would have the potential to limit growth, and I'm 100% against that.

And I'm entirely against the idea of inherent Talent Points. Students should earn their progression, and simply capping their levels makes it unfair to them - Initiates now have to be promoted to advance? Technically, I see where you're coming from, but that's not the way to do it. Initiates are already forbidden from learning certain skills outside of the Core Powers, and now you want to XP cap them? So once they hit that cap, aren't they just going to feel demoralised, knowing that they can't get any further in their progression until someone decides to promote them to Padawan? What motivation are they going to have for attending classes or doing activities on the server, if they have no reason to believe that these things will push them forward?

But I'm against level caps in general, particularly since they suggest that a character can't advance their abilities beyond that without the trappings of rank, and that's not true at all. Initiates can be just as strong as Padawans - they may not have training in as many skills, but they can certainly be developed enough to match their raw talent. And Knights being unable to progress past 21, purely because they lack the honorary title of Master? I would never agree to that. Ever.

It honestly looks to me as if the aim of this is to essentially put everyone in neat little boxes, and I can't stand that. Yes, we do need better regulation of the XP system, yes, it could do with an overhaul but, no, this isn't the way to do it, as far as I'm concerned.