Ability/skill learning suggestion

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Lucen-Zo
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Ability/skill learning suggestion

Post by Lucen-Zo »

So I've had this idea for a couple months now, and I even touched upon it in a recent thread so I decided to put in a proper suggestion for it.

But it is the ability to unlock skills through journal posts.

What I mean by this, is you still need to have a class on something that is unlocked in the template (push, pull, jump) and if you don't have the XP to unlock it from the get-go, you have the option to do journal posts to work towards it.

these journal posts would have to be detailed, showing off challenges your character encountered and overcame within their practicing it. Once posted, they can ask a Knight+ to review it and if it's found acceptable, they can be granted the XP to unlock a skill.

This could be applied to skill advancements as well, with further restrictions (like X amount of time needs to pass before you can officially apply to advance a skill).

We're always telling people not to worry about XP, and to write more journal posts. This might be a decent way to help with those who feel like they might be stagnating, people who don't have as much time to log in as much as other people, and give them a way to keep up with those that are able to be around often.

Some restrictions to prevent abuse could be basic/core skills could require 1 journal post, more advanced ones could require 2, or more. Time needed between journal posts.
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Teynara Jeralyr
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Re: Ability/skill learning suggestion

Post by Teynara Jeralyr »

Our emphasis with skill learning has always been server-based, primarily to encourage interaction and development alongside your peers/teachers. If we start allowing skill development via journal entry, that's what everyone's going to default to in order to quickly advance their skills without having to schedule lessons or be taught by a mentor.

I only see an upside for the student in question. There isn't really one for anybody else, and it's certainly not going to improve either server activity or inter-clan interaction.
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Kiara O'ren
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Re: Ability/skill learning suggestion

Post by Kiara O'ren »

I definitely see where you are coming from, Lucen. However, I personally agree with Teynara.

I do not support anything that drives people away from the server instead of towards it.

If you, or anyone else, feels like your character is stagnating in their training, I would encourage people to get out of their comfort zone and approach Knights and Masters for the training they need. Students should be eager to learn about the Force as it is our duty as a Jedi.

Understandably it's a bit of a unique time and it can be difficult to find a teacher that is freely available for impromptu training. The solution to this is to determine when you are available and post a request for training with ideal dates and times specified.
___________|- Name: Kiara O'ren | Born: 372ABY | Image
|- Initiation: 382.27 ABY -|- Apprenticed: 386.01 ABY -|- Knighted: 397.25 -|- Padawans: Eli Tzineda, Donan Healof -|
Lucen-Zo
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Re: Ability/skill learning suggestion

Post by Lucen-Zo »

Teynara Jeralyr wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:14 pm Our emphasis with skill learning has always been server-based, primarily to encourage interaction and development alongside your peers/teachers. If we start allowing skill development via journal entry, that's what everyone's going to default to in order to quickly advance their skills without having to schedule lessons or be taught by a mentor.

I only see an upside for the student in question. There isn't really one for anybody else, and it's certainly not going to improve either server activity or inter-clan interaction.

Which is exactly why I said that you are still required to have a lesson on the skill you are seeking to learn. The idea was to give those who cannot be as active an alternative but with heavy restrictions on it. Still requiring on server interactions, requiring lessons, time delays that don't exist for those who are more active.
Kiara O'ren wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:21 pm If you, or anyone else, feels like your character is stagnating in their training, I would encourage people to get out of their comfort zone and approach Knights and Masters for the training they need. Students should be eager to learn about the Force as it is our duty as a Jedi.
I've done this in the past as well. But I always got the feeling I was infringing on them based on responses I'd get, as they felt I was pestering them even though I was only trying to work out a date that's good. Sometimes waiting months before I eventually give up. And then when I have sought out someone else, I have been told off by the person I was waiting on. This isn't a jab at anyone or anything as I know how IRL can be, but a reality of what kind of things I have faced myself. This translates into years ICly of waiting as well.

For me, it's not about a comfort zone thing but more over... Bad experiences, I suppose.

It's not an idea that's meant to drive activity away from the server, but help to encourage journal posts as well. To give a supplementary aspect to something.
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Kiara O'ren
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Re: Ability/skill learning suggestion

Post by Kiara O'ren »

Do not feel as though you are infringing. It is as much a Knight's job to teach as it is a Student's job to learn.

The way things are right now in JEDI will require just a little bit of effort for students to wave their arms a bit and say "Here I am, train me!" Since regular classes aren't so regular for the moment.

You should never feel discouraged for trying to walk the path you are supposed to walk, as a student. If that is happening, it needs to be addressed.

As far as this particular suggestion goes, if in-game lessons are still required than this is not a departure from how things currently run. Journal entries or assignments to supplement in game training are always recommended as they make it easier for your character's teachers and Council to track their progress.
___________|- Name: Kiara O'ren | Born: 372ABY | Image
|- Initiation: 382.27 ABY -|- Apprenticed: 386.01 ABY -|- Knighted: 397.25 -|- Padawans: Eli Tzineda, Donan Healof -|
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Teynara Jeralyr
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Re: Ability/skill learning suggestion

Post by Teynara Jeralyr »

Which is exactly why I said that you are still required to have a lesson on the skill you are seeking to learn. The idea was to give those who cannot be as active an alternative but with heavy restrictions on it. Still requiring on server interactions, requiring lessons, time delays that don't exist for those who are more active.
It isn't an alternative if there's still an on-server lesson required. It's exactly the same system as we currently have: one or more lessons on the server, then journal entries to back up what you've been taught and how you're applying that new understanding.

As for journal entries warranting XP...I don't necessarily object to that, but it would be penalising poor writers and rewarding good ones, which in and of itself could easily create a disparity. Imagine Sirius doing that: his writing was always of great quality, so he'd have been drawing in a ton of XP for it, if we'd gone down that pathway. Usually, we stick to the approach that XP is only given for a journal entry if it's an assignment or other such similar entry, because then it's designed to reflect learning or complete a specific task.
I've done this in the past as well. But I always got the feeling I was infringing on them based on responses I'd get, as they felt I was pestering them even though I was only trying to work out a date that's good. Sometimes waiting months before I eventually give up. And then when I have sought out someone else, I have been told off by the person I was waiting on. This isn't a jab at anyone or anything as I know how IRL can be, but a reality of what kind of things I have faced myself. This translates into years ICly of waiting as well.
To be blunt, you are infringing on us by requesting lessons - that's part of why we moved that system to the Comport rather than letting students bug us during server time. Teaching a lesson is time-consuming, and requires quite a bit of effort on our part: we have to find a way to convey information to you effectively, and do so in a way that isn't boring, tedious or too obscure. Being honest, I know a lot of us used to avoid the server purely because we didn't want to be inundated with requests for lessons when all we wanted to do was hang out and be social for a bit.

That noted, it is our role to teach and provide lessons - it's a prerequisite of Knighthood, and one of the reasons so many new Knights burn out shortly after being promoted, because suddenly they have all the responsibility, and none of the fun part! It's fun to be taught...it's less fun having to do the teaching. Thus, yes, every request is an imposition, but that's okay, because it is part of what we take on by being part of the Knighthood.

That said, I agree we need to alter the way we provide lessons: neither system is perfect, and both have significant issues that could do with being addressed. I just don't think this is the way to go: it puts a lot of agency into the hands of the student body, and is likely to detract from on-server activity, which is never a good thing. Ideally, we want as much RP as possible to be done on the server. Journals are great, but they're there to supplement RP, not replace it!
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Serir Vun
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Re: Ability/skill learning suggestion

Post by Serir Vun »

Sorry to necro this thread. I had some thoughts to add however:

This problem presents itself a lot for initiates and masterless padawans. Oftentimes they are able to get the lessons needed for approval to make the purchase, but unable to actually accrue the exp due to whatever reason (ie no knight available for a lesson). This can lead to feelings of stagnation and even a sense of boredom with the community, especially when peers progress more quickly than you for whatever reason.

This is multi-faceted, and I won't pretend that it's all on the knights. As a padawan that had a large amount of trouble getting assistance prior to Iffo taking me on, I've seen both sides of it and definitely get what Lucen feels. I went into Knighthood thinking that my main focus would be to attend to members who were being "left behind" so to speak.

I learned that it's rarely just an "inactive knight" thing (I recognize the irony of being an inactive knight and saying this : ^] ), but a combination of circumstances. I recall running a rather intricate and tailored one on one for a player that was 90% me, 10% them with one to two word responses and minimal emotes. The time put into creating experiences for players is usually significant, and the main payoff for Knights is the enjoyment of those taking part. I realized quickly that if someone is not giving their full attention or are not appreciating the experience you curated for them, it's not worth it to make the content for them.

Those are just a couple examples of how things appear from both perspectives (student vs knight), and certainly do not encompass the entirety of why such a problem exists.

So when the problem is caused or exacerbated by multiple fronts, it's easier to address the end goal rather than solving each of the issues that contribute, at least in my opinion. Here is a list of suggestions I've come up with to perhaps keep the nuance and intrigue with RPMod's power purchasing system while also alleviating some concerns from students:
  • Lower the XP cost of tier 1 Force powers, and add the difference to tier 3.
  • Build into the Holonet or RPMod the ability to submit XP requests for review to the Council (this may be good anyways as Knights already do this, it may make things easier on the council side as well.
    • We could have students tag their journal entries (or knights posting in student journals) so that XP related posts can be filtered and identified easily.
  • Rework XP entirely. My suggestion would be creating 21 different XP types, which encompass all purchasable powers as well as one for a "wildcard" XP that is awarded for missions or outings. Knights can directly award XP for the lesson they are giving, and because of this can give more of it to help make advancement more immediate along that particular power without any chance of the XP going elsewhere.
  • Alternative to the last idea, removing XP entirely and instead having each power tier require 3 unique knight endorsements to unlock the power. This would encourage Knights to oversee and evaluate the skills of the students, meaning outside of an initial lesson, the student can conduct practice in their journal and approach a Knight to evaluate their skills. After the knight evaluates and coaches, they award an "XP Shard" for lack of a better term. 3 shards equals one base power. And the number can go up per tier, and so on, etc. This also removes a bit of a load from Knights feeling pressured to create a whole lesson when instead they can observe and coach.
Some of these things we already implement in one way or the other (ie many Knights will restrict where an XP goes when awarding it already).

Personally, I detest the attitude of "this student is XP hungry" because it's always the ones that don't have to consider their XP that say so with some minor exceptions here or there. XP is a barrier that can impact RP. Just for example Tey I always found it disappointing that if you did a jump course or obstacle course on the fly that participants usually didn't see any XP from that, though one would think that they did actively in the session train their jumping skill or their endurance. That's not a personal dig, just another example from the other side of the fence. I think if we work together we can come up with a better solution however.
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⌠ Name: Serir Vun • Species: Duros • Master: Joran Fayara | Iffo Rav'i • Knighted: 410.26 • Birth: 374.14 ABY ⌡
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