Guardian Force Point Progression

[Kenta]

Flag me for lack of thought on that one.

[Aslyn Denethorn]

Consider it done

[Rash Loist]

/support

For obvious reasons.

[Jared]

No Kenta is right actually, especially as Protect doesn't drain FP until someone attacks.

When a Guardian uses those powers in combination (which they clearly can despite a lower force pool) they become utterly unbeatable unless you are a: unnaturally good with a saber for your class or b: spam force attacks in a way that is unrealistic.

I would support any initiative that made the distinctions between health and force less overt between these classes. Obi-Wan Kenobi was a guardian but he wasn't a 'Tank' -> Saber skill has at some point been translated as HEALTH and so force abilities are somewhat penalised.

However I appreciate that a complete overhaul of specs would be an unwelcome gesture.

For now Jamus I'd simply suggest that you don't actually need more force in your pool as you can already be unrealistically devastating as it is.

[Vantus]

Guardians

Please don't nerf us.

[Cyril Feraan]

I kind of wonder why protect doesn't have at least a nominal FP drain rate like absorb has (even a slow one is more realistic, considering the energy needed to maintain such a strong barrier as 90 percent protected). At the moment, to make protect drain FP, you need to hit them, to hit them, you need to get close. But someone under 90 percent protection (once again using high protect as an example) is not going to feel vulnerable, and thus almost always hit you into next week. So it's unadvisable to get close to someone protecting, and therefore protect never really costs them much.

But after that rambling, I'm starting to feel this gets too much into unexplored territory that hasn't been discussed before. The whole topic seems controversial because it risks seriously weakening or strengthening one class or another, which is undesirable considering we have it pretty good at the moment. There are no terrible problems with balance.

As Jared said, with such changes, MANY things would have to be rethought in a full revision of the system. And a full revision is also controversial.

However, if anyone wants, I'm pretty sure Corinth has the graphs to show that the current system is pretty fair for one class or another.

[Vantus]

Plus there is absolutely nothing stopping Consulars or Sentinels from having Protect and Absorb and with their greater Force Pools, doesn't this mean that the effects would last longer?

[Nivek Tholmai]

When I activate Protect, the FP DOES decrease. Anyone wanna video proof?

[Atrux Nuro]

Maybe consulars should just get better with using force; Consulars can jump longer, absorb and protect longer so it sounds pretty fair to me, the only problem would be actual skill. Not every Jedi master or knight has to be a great duelist. Jedi master Irkit, for instance, didn't even really fight as far as I know. Most everybody seems just a little bit to powerfull to RP correctly, so tone it down, unless you can actualy RP your character having been conceived by Midi-chlorians. The actual skill of the players in RL allows for realistic diversity, in my opinion. But I don't know anything, I'm only a hopeful.

[Gabe Alkorda]

we have it pretty good at the moment. There are no terrible problems with balance.

I actually think the current system is horribly imbalanced and not very realistic.

I also think the whole notion of having guardian, sentinel, and consular classes is absurd.

I also hate KOTOR.

Dumping the current "Jedi Classes" in exchange for numerous different classes serving as species types, would make much more sense and would be much more beneficial in my opinion. BUT, that's another topic entirely.

EDIT//
I'd also like to attest to the fact that guardians in their current state are completely unstoppable. I am a level 23 Consular, Master Loist is a level 20 guardian (while it's only three levels, its HUGE increases in XP amounts). I am a seasoned Jedi Master, and he is a seasoned Jedi Knight. I am rather talented in the Force, he is rather talented with a saber. By all means, however, I'd say that we would be evenly matched in a spar, even to the extent that they would more often result in a win for me, with Force usage enabled.

However, I can't even touch him. With his saber skill, protect, and absorb, the most I've managed to do is take 11 points off of his shields.

Again, horribly imbalanced, but I do think that guardians should have 150 FP. Really though, I blame the guardian/sentinel/consular classes in the first place. graahhhh anarchy!

[Atrux Nuro]

Scratch what I said, I like gabe's idea. Call me a suck up, but that makes more sense, not necessarily on species, but each person having their own progression, even In kotor you could level up your constitution regardless of class. Even consulars could have The ultimate HP.

[Aslyn Denethorn]

Well, the way I look at it, it's a focus not based in what you're good at, but in what your preferences are. Traditionally, for example, Jedi Consulars were NOT such because they used the Force more than a lightsaber, but because they were diplomats, scholars, healers etc - people who invariably used their talents for non-destructive ends, and as such, didn't train as hard with the lightsaber.

The Guardians learned their combat skills because of specific instances in which combat was appropriate - if there's a war going on, and diplomacy's not an option, send in the Guardian. But it wasn't just about combat, but rather, a relentless strength of mind that would get the job done, whatever the circumstances. If you're read Shatterpoint, then that's your example. Being willing to fight if you have to, and doing it well, but being first and foremost a Jedi.

And the Sentinels? Well, they're the ones with a much more varied skill base - Force abilities, lightsaber skills, sure, but also excellent at skills that don't require Force Sensitivity. Corran Horn is a superb example: being a Jedi added layers to the skills he already as a pilot and a former member of CorSec. He could rely on the Force or his lightsaber if he had to, but he had other ways to deal with situations above and beyond that.

In conclusion, I find the problem with the classes is mainly that they're not about such basic things as whether you use the Force or a lightsaber, but rather more about your focus on a professional level - and, as such, it only takes into account WHAT you then learn, not what your strengths and weaknesses are. It's a guide to training, nothing more, and our system doesn't take that into account. Neither, for that matter, does KOTOR, upon which the idea was based.

So, yeah, I'm agreeing with Master Alkorda

[Vantus]

I also hate KOTOR.

I'm not alone in the universe!!!


The classes give people a feeling of uniquness. To say "I'm a guardian" or "Well i'm different from you, i'm a consular". It's a way of making yourself feel that your not the exact same as everyone else and in some way follow a different path. Kind of like choosing Warrior, Mage, Thief, Healer in the old classic RPGs.
(I'm also ignoring RP personality here so please don't suggest that.)

However I do agree that you can't automatically categorise and tag your character as dividing everyone into 3 pots can also be damaging to Individualism.


I guess when you have a 3point spectrum and you can't decide which end you want to be on, you just sit in the middle of both.

"Sentinel" in this case.

[Aslyn Denethorn]

That and it makes your training choices a bit of a pain. Pair a Consular with a Guardian? Nah, that's not smart, so let's pair a Guardian with a Guardian. Restricts you, invariably, when tradition dictates that the apprentice takes up their Master's profession, because that's how they're TRAINED :p

So we need a middle ground (that isn't Sentinel) - a neutral non-affiliated one for everyone to sit in until they're apprenticed and have their career path chosen by their training. That's my position

[Corinth Alkorda]

I have no problem with Guardians being able to defeat Consulars easily. Consulars are those of us who have decided to not actively pursue combat training, but rather be scholars and seers. Guardians are meant to be warriors. If I were a prophet, I wouldn't expect to be able to take down a soldier very easily, if at all. Additionally, it's not difficult for any class to teach another. While we all have specialties, the core training methods are the same, and the supplementary training methods are easy to adapt. It's not an issue for most. Additionally, this "middle ground" is here already, really. In most cases, an initiate will be chosen by a Master before he reaches level 10 (or around there). The classes are identical until after level 10.

Besides all that, is sparring really the focus of our role play?