Offense 1

[Wen-Ordo]

I say leave blue the way it is, it displays the Shii-Cho form more accurately seeing that it is indeed an unpredictable and randomized form which what can be performed more efficiently with blue, rather than the straight precise swings yellow can do plus it wouldn't make sense if an initiate that is clearly under 10 years or younger would be able to swing with such precision with yellow, just doesn't make sense in my opinion.


Offense 1 - Blue stance
Offense 2 - Yellow stance
Offense 3 - Red stance
Offense 4 - Tavion
Offense 5 - Desann

[Dev Kai]

I say leave blue the way it is, it displays the Shii-Cho form more accurately seeing that it is indeed an unpredictable and randomized form which what can be performed more efficiently with blue, rather than the straight precise swings yellow can do plus it wouldn't make sense if an initiate that is clearly under 10 years or younger would be able to swing with such precision with yellow, just doesn't make sense in my opinion.


Offense 1 - Blue stance
Offense 2 - Yellow stance
Offense 3 - Red stance
Offense 4 - Tavion
Offense 5 - Desann

My thoughts exactly, Wen.
-DK

[Zander-Bo Umra]

I'm thinking this: Being 'forced' into blue stance for a bit on several characters gave me experience with a stance I may have otherwise let slouch. I understand the 'inbetweenness' reasons that have been brought up, but I would be more of a flailer had I not had the opportunity to practice my timing with a way faster style first, rather than have medium to start with.

Blue can be a very enjoyable stance if you let it too, as its low damage practices your OOC patience that'll prevent you from rushing in to get the other person down first.

[Silas Vir'n]

I wish the system wasn't so linear that you had to get blue to get yellow, and so on. I wish there was a five way system to purchase any of them at any given point. And then you just enable whichever form you want on, so like yellow and red. Or yellow and Desann.

[Shaok Panek]

I wish the system wasn't so linear that you had to get blue to get yellow, and so on. I wish there was a five way system to purchase any of them at any given point. And then you just enable whichever form you want on, so like yellow and red. Or yellow and Desann.

This.

[Elensa Jari]

I wish the system wasn't so linear that you had to get blue to get yellow, and so on. I wish there was a five way system to purchase any of them at any given point. And then you just enable whichever form you want on, so like yellow and red. Or yellow and Desann.

This.

I'll add a +1. Oddly enough, the SP system had this - when you first started the game, you were able to pick both your stance and whether you wanted dual sabers, a staff or a single blade. It would be good if we had such a system for JEDI.

[Maia Rimora]

"Blue" does not support Shii-Cho in the slightest, Shii-Cho is meant to represent your traditional swordsmanship, and I don't recall many of them being able to pull off so many quick swings unless the blade was incredibly light to begin with. Ideally, blue is more akin to a fencer's sword which does not suit Shii-Cho in the slightest in my humble opinion. It should be noted, in Wen's arguement, I find that only true masters of Shii-Cho were capable of being so unpredictable, for most initiates, this is simply a stepping stone into other forms, where a few others may continue to advance their shii-cho, which should give more reason to have them buy blue, if they're so passionate about it. Yellow suits Shii-Cho to a greater degree, blue can be bought to expand upon deflection (as I do believe, it offers greater deflection/reflection possibilities than yellow) which may tie into Soresu/Shien in general.

I am in favour of yellow/medium being brought down to Offense 1 WITHOUT a damage reduction. This would really only effect initiates and those presently without offense 2, most of which are stuck with their training lightsabers which already have damage reduction. If it's an issue, then it's simply a case of lowering training hilts to an even lower damage output.

Also in favour in switching up Tavion/Desann. If we can have a SP layout of being able to pick and choose our forms, that'd be grand. I do believe some mods list 'forms' separately (more or less their way of changing up the blue/yellow/red, lay out), perhaps, we can list forms separate, it'll be up to us as to whether or not we want these particular styles. I for one, would much rather be without blue, as it is something I rarely ever use.

[Arven Silaan]

I'm honestly not in favor of making yellow offence 1. I've always seen shii cho as quick, deliberate attacks, much like blue's. From a movie stand point this is the best representation of Shii Cho IMO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kpHK4YIwY4

The moves are quick, mostly wrist action. Much like blue and very much not like yellow.

Shii-Cho is designed to teach placement and precision of strikes - in essence, to give the student some understanding of Points of Contact, the different types of strike

Absolutely agree. And very -very- easily obtainable through proper RP with blue. If you're going into spars to beat each other to a pulp, it's always been taught that, that is not what spars are for. To be good with blue, -is- to be damn accurate and precise. If you're 'ffa' dueling with blue, that is where the problem is.

Fast stance requires considerable understanding of footwork, motion and accuracy in movement

Everything Shii Cho should aim to teach new students into the order. Not to mention all stances require considerable understanding of footwork, motion and accuracy.

from an IC perspective, no Jedi would move so quickly in using a lightsaber unless they already had some skill with it.

Move so quickly as in run about swinging wildly? Completely agree. Do we need to give initiates yellow stance to counter this? Nope, they'll still move quicker than they should if their aim is to 'beat' the opposition rather than to RP. Again proper RP will solve this problem.

If you've ever used a real sword, you know that you certainly don't flurry around or use lots of spins and turns (even when you know what you're doing!), because this is both risky in terms of how the weapon handles, and also because it offers opponents unnecessary openings.

Correct. However remember lightsabers are not real swords. We're not required to cleave through medieval armor to injure our opponent as would be required with a real sword in the times they were used.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYw5KWT ... tu.be&t=90

Lightsabers require very little strength to injure, so it is safe to assume that early practitioners also knew this information and developed fast, quick strikes for this reason as Shii cho was not created for saber to saber combat.

As Shii-Cho was developed prior to either the emergence of Dark Jedi or Sith Lords, it was not created with lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat in mind.

Honestly, Medium stance offers a lot more in terms of precision training: combinations and drills are far more extensive in Medium, both because you're limited to a maximum of 3-4 chained movements, and also because each is slow enough that they can be broken down and combined easily. With Fast stance, you have nanoseconds to decide on your next movement, and this is far harder both to teach with and learn from!

Agreed, it does. That is why I feel yellow would be better suited to padawans as they really begin to hone their strengths.

Students new to the lightsaber are encouraged to use two-handed strikes: the single-handed emphasis of Fast Style runs counter to this, suggestive of a fluidity and confidence in handling of a lightsaber that no new student is likely to experience.

Yes they are, and blue is still two handed strikes apart from the spins. Which I, as an initiate was taught simply -don't- spin.

suggestive of a fluidity and confidence in handling of a lightsaber that no new student is likely to experience.

Again, this is a matter of people realizing RP over game mechanics. Sure, I can reroll tomorrow as a fresh faced initiate that just got their lightsaber jump onto the dojo mat and start throwing out flurries and kata's and moves that no new young initiate should know. I could do this with Yellow too, but we don't because we're an RP clan that prides itself on not doing that.

Shii-Cho is meant to represent your traditional swordsmanship, and I don't recall many of them being able to pull off so many quick swings unless the blade was incredibly light to begin with.

Two points on this one. Shii-Cho was a transition "the process or a period of changing from one state or condition to another." from sword to lightsaber. Again I'll refer to the obi wan vs darth duel here. Second point, the lightsaber has no mass, the blade is weightless

It should be noted, in Wen's argument, I find that only true masters of Shii-Cho were capable of being so unpredictable, for most initiates, this is simply a stepping stone into other forms

"Form I encouraged deliberate tactics, calling for continuous, step-by-step advancement while cutting off the opponent's angles"

"Basic initiates in the style demonstrated rather clumsy performance, though in the hands of a master, Shii-Cho was fluid but highly randomized and unpredictable."

Yellow does not seem clumsy to me what so ever. Blue? In new hands it is hilarious. My point? Blue -is- the stepping stone into other stances.

(I will follow the masses on agreeing that tavion and desann need to be swapped.)

I for one, would much rather be without blue, as it is something I rarely ever use.

You can do this with a simple .sab file edit
What I would really like to see is us doing away with 'training' settings. Keep the term IC but get rid of the training variants. I don't feel we need to alter offence 1/2 in any way, what we do need to do is instill proper RP of the forms.

TL;DR RP should solve most of the problems. Change your RP before you change the game mechanics.

[Maia Rimora]

You're not wrong with the transition thing in mind! However much of the footwork and use of the lightsaber, regardless of how weightless it is, was more or less designed with the idea of traditional swordplay in mind, hence, the two handed grip. In your reference to Obi-Wan and Darth Vader, the hilts were designed in mind to be incredibly heavy at this point in Star Wars lore, they were more akin to swordplay than the amped up speed of lightsaber combat in episodes 1-3 and 5.

There is some truth that it'd be clumsy but at the end of day, that's based on game mechanics of blue being -too- fast, where as yellow seems like a safer approach for any new student when entering the realm of lightsaber combat. In theory, the speed of blue would perhaps best suited for those that can actually use the style with precision and good tactics in mind. Yellow is seemingly more straight forward. I do think in terms of RP, being clumsy is down to the initiate, I find that wookieepedia article to be too general, it's down to the player on whether or not they start out clumsy, they don't necessarily have to.

But of course! Roleplay comes before game mechanics.

This style bore some similarities to the Ataru form of the Jedi Order, making use of acrobatic jumps and rolls to strike an opponent from unexpected angles. It also shared similarities with Soresu, since users kept the blade close to their bodies for a very rapid and effective defense against blasters and other melee weapons. It's worth noting that Tavion Axmis uses a variant of the fast style that has many similarities to that of Shien, being more aggressive and offensive than the fast style that is used by Kyle Katarn. Fast style enabled very fast parries or trap shunts, allowing users to trap and then redirect an opponent's strike to knock them off-balance.

The medium style struck a balance between the powerful but slow swings of the strong style and the short but swift strikes of the fast style. The medium style was very simple in design, and that is both a strength and weakness. It was an excellent style to fall back onto when nothing else worked, and could provide a respectable offense and defense. It could effectively combat blasters and hold less skilled lightsaber duelist at bay. However, more skilled gunslingers (such as Boba Fett) or more talented lightsaber duelists (such as Luke Skywalker) would very rapidly break a medium style defense. The same holds true in offense, as a skilled duelist would rapidly destroy the user's momentum and counterattack.

This style bore some similarities to the Shii-Cho and Niman forms of the Old Jedi Order, both combining elements of multiple combat forms, yet being simple and basic. A few Ataru-like elements could also be seen in some of the acrobatic techniques within this style, although jumping or rolling techniques were few and far between in this style.

Food for thought in regards to what's been written on these styles elsewhere.

[Zuri Lyn]

So, I also read the posts on the last suggestion thread, and I say there's sound arguments to keeping the system this way. Especially, something mentioned by Dixo :

For RP purposes I think gaining yellow before blue makes sense. Its easier to get a hang of than blue, but more difficult to master fully.

For OOC purposes. Blue is more difficult to become good with than yellow, by skipping using the blue stance for the first months of your training the already sinking dueling standards of JEDI will plunge even further.

Blue is the fundament which we have always based our saber training off of, as such I am in favor of keeping the system unaltered for now.

I won't comment on the 'sinking dueling standards' part, but will say that the whole period of learning with blue is *very* beneficial to learning the basics of sabering. As others have also mentioned in this thread, it's required to be precise to make blue work. At the same time, because it doesn't do much damage, spars in blue are all about footwork and patience.

All this makes blue a very good tool for people to relearn sparring the rp way instead of the 'ffa' way, when they're coming from other places of jka.

Small note on another suggestion made in the thread : please never reduce or increase the damage your lightsaber does based on the amount of xp you've invested. Going around auto winning spars isn't fun for anyone. I understand the idea was mostly as a damage reduction for level 1, but low level accounts already have the difficulty of low hp and low fp regen. That's all for me for now

[Silas Vir'n]

Wookieepedia articles hold value, but JEDI operates in its own realm of structure, both in teaching and use of the system. Years upon years has been built up on how we pass down lightsaber forms with our mechanics, to change them now would result in the changing of forms, how they're roleplayed and operated causing the majority of the student body to have to relearn a new 'mechanic' of how we use Shii-Cho. Personally I feel like the problem isn't the fact yellow isn't coming first, it's that the system is linear. Different species will learn different styles of fighting and swinging, depending on their strength.

I'd support, once again, a system where any individual form can be purchased separately, to avoid having to purchase styles that don't co-operate.

I feel like, another addition to the benefit of our system supporting blue first is; it gives Initiates discipline, being that blue is very difficult to use and it encourages accuracy and footwork. Personally I feel like purchasing yellow first will just promote a sparring culture, which is the opposite of what we want to do here. Shii-Cho has always been the first form taught, and blue best reflects the values of Shii-Cho. Yellow and blue in conjunction are still applicable for Shii-Cho, neither style belongs to any specific form.

If a non-linear system is impossible due to compatibility issues, I don't think having yellow come first will benefit any further.

[Karmarie Zar]

I wish the system wasn't so linear that you had to get blue to get yellow, and so on. I wish there was a five way system to purchase any of them at any given point. And then you just enable whichever form you want on, so like yellow and red. Or yellow and Desann.

I would love to see this system.

[Kieran Orion]

What I would really like to see is us doing away with 'training' settings. Keep the term IC but get rid of the training variants.

While I cannot agree more in regards to keeping the Roleplay in depth as much as possible (It is the reason this community exists), I don't like the idea of taking away the training settings and it's not so much for IC purposes but actually mostly for OOC. This may come off as somewhat controversial but I have two reasons for this.

In Character: The first is that while the construction of a lightsaber is such an important part of a students growth, so is the privilege of being given a full frequency lightsaber. It doesn't symbolize as much yet it does represent a certain amount of faith and trust in the student receiving the hilt. With the ability to then, take a life, it's something that should hit them hard and a time I feel they ought to take great pride in to be receiving such a thing. The physical change from training to full in-game is a rewarding factor for any student.

Out Of Character: Putting it simply, "Ping". While this doesn't necessarily effect many and can be ignored where Rp'ing is concerned, in sparring it can be a great advantage or otherwise. Carrying a 300 plus Ping, the reaction speed's dulled somewhat and if we're to do away with the training settings, we're more likely to see a good number of Knights floored by students where there's a usually obvious difference in IC experience.
It can be argued that Sparring isn't everything about this community and there shouldn't be to much competition between members which I couldn't agree with more however it's pretty hard to ignore the fact that lightsaber combat is one of the games biggest features and when it comes to In-Character relevance, I find it hard to believe a member of the Order with more experience could be beaten by one of less with so much justification. This isn't an argument that's about who's better than who but rather an emphasis on character experience/development.

Again, to simplify; the training settings ensures that while using the RPmod game mechanics, students with less experience < Experienced Padawan/Jedi Knights+. Concerning the desire/need to see all things be role-played with more depth and efficiency, I couldn't agree with more as I'm all for graphic/detailed role-playing.

In regards to the main topic of this thread, I'm actually on the fence now. While Offense two does make much more sense regarding Shii-Cho to me, the thought of how we would work around editing the damage ratio isn't all that encouraging. I do have to agree with Arven when he says...

Change your RP before you change the game mechanics.

[Dev Kai]

I am against changing the training setting variants. It wouldn't be fun because you couldn't spar or train with initiates/ jr padawans, because you would just one shot them.

[Evanin Dawnstar]

I am against changing the training setting variants. It wouldn't be fun because you couldn't spar or train with initiates/ jr padawans, because you would just one shot them.

This.