KOTOR-Like Leveling up

[Larkit]

I think I could guess that lower values were better, but is it like... you got 500-200=300 Force regen, or how does it work?

[Rokran]

I agree, I do like this system. A lot. But, my questions, just going to classes and learning from training wasn't the only way of gaining points in KoToR. The Jedi would go on missions, take on other missions, do things for other people, and the such, and be granted points.

I think that this system should give another excuse for more than one mission a month. But, that's a different topic.

Overall, I like it.

[Cyril Feraan]

Larkit: I can't claim to be experienced in how the Force regeneration is calculated for JKA, but I should not be surprised if it were something similar to that. But, the point is, a lower value calculates out to equal a faster regen.

[Jared]

I find Axem's proposal interesting, but I vote we stick with the current system we have right now, its been ages in coming, and I'd like to get my teeth into it before we upsticks again.

Pretty much any problem you can find with game mechanics can be solved by Rp-ing properly... we demand a good understanding of english and grammer for a reason folks!

On a side note, I have one more suggestion. Is it possible to lower the 'Punch' Damage? We enforce Kick and Throw hand to hand combat when younglings decide for whatever reason that they REALLY HAVE to fight each other, why not reduce the impact of a punch limiting its ability to be spammed. Not trying to sound bitter but Fists vs Saber should really never be a viable option, yet I can think of plenty of occasions where someone good at the game can take down a Jedi because of a difference in gaming ability. This an RP community afterall, not a 'Gamer' one.


... and yes, I am aware that the last two paragraphs totally contradict one another.

[Wesley Ryor]

Im not too excited about all the tweaks, and striving for balance. Because... there isn't balance. There can and never will be in the world we Role-play in. Balance is if everyone was the same... exactly the same.. and we are not all the same.

I do like the system, but for the sake of what Lynee said and individuality I actually just prefer base JKA, where everyone had the possibility to get the same things..... they just didn't.. because their individuality chose their abilities, how real people are.

[Axem Keigoku]

Knight Ryor, I remember you were one of the greatest defender of class-system in the early days of the Mod...

Anyway!

What I see here is that people think always 'downward' in such matters.

Please do this exercise. Take your current level, and look up which powers would be available (don't bother with the class yet), let's all just say we are Counsulars. Now, pick the appropriate number of powers with the level you are.

Level 10 is 10 powers
Level 15 is 20
etc

Now, tell me how much different it is from your current template. I doubt there would be MUCH difference. And besides, this is ment as an RPMod, and that is based off one of the most successful RPG franchise yet.

I'll try to rebalance the HP/FP/Regen stats to give other varieties. Also know that the Focus 12 for Consulars will change, for all Classes.

¬ Axem

[Wesley Ryor]

Knight Ryor, I remember you were one of the greatest defender of class-system in the early days of the Mod...

I dont see how thats relevant. Because this is now. Not then.

Besides, things did not turned out as things were envisioned. :: Shrug ::

[Soh Raun]

Hmm while it seems to be a nice system you suggested there, Axem, I can see several flaws:

• Gaining several powers suddenly when you level up isn't very realistic in my opinion.
• Leveling up can take a while, so the training wouldn't be progressive. There would be alternatively big steps (level up) and no progress at all (between two levels).
• Giving all powers and levels the same amount of XP (95) kind of defeats the purpose of XP, since all powers would be treated equally, no matter how hard to master they are.
• Having a set path of powers for each class reduces the diversity of characters. Also, I don't see the need for this... remember the forcePowerMax of each Level in a Class can already limit the powers available, so Storm at low levels can be avoided. But ideally this should not be needed, as people should know what is possible or not (Initiates using Storm is not).
• As already stated, there must be a difference between classes concerning Health/Force/Regen. They can all start with the same values (100 FP, 100 HP and 200 Regen) and finish with the values you put in the chart. But between these, I can see two ways of adjusting the progress depending on the class:
  • by changing the speed of the gain. This means Consulars would gain FP at each level faster than they get HP, Guardians would get HP faster than FP, and Sentinels would have an average speed.
  • by changing the moment at which the progress starts. Consulars would start increasing their FP from the beginning, but would only start increasing their HP from level 10 for example (this would have to be determined precisely). The contrary for Guardians, and Sentinels would start increasing FP and HP at the same time but perhaps not from the beginning.. or just slowly.

Still, I agree with locking the templates and unlocking them occasionally to choose new powers. It makes sense, since when you learn something with patience and efforts, you don't easily forget it. And removing powers to be able to assign more XP to other powers is simply cheating (all ranks have done that).

So I think the best implementation would be to unlock the choice of one or more new power(s) as soon as you have enough XP, but still allow lowering the level of already acquired powers (because going back to Push level 2 when you already know level 3 is not a problem and could even be useful). Basically, once you choose a new power level, you can't cancel this choice (since you learned it).

Technically this would integrate to the Force selection UI: newly choosable power levels would be highlighted in green, powers unavailable because you don't have enough XP would be faded (like class/level restricted ones in v0.2), powers unavailable because of class/level restrictions would be in red. As soon as new powers are available after a XP gain, you would be informed by a message on the screen. You would open your Force selection UI, modify your template and Validate it (which would save it at the same time). After that, the powers in green would become blue again. Of course if you want to wait before choosing a new power level (for example if you need more XP for another power), you could do so by not Validating the template (so the new choosable powers would stay in green). Once Validated, you can't cancel it so you would have to choose carefully. In case of problems, Council-level admins (with SetAccount rights) would be able to change the template.

What do you think?

__________________________________________________________

Oh and for technical details:

• The Force Regen Time is a delay in milliseconds between each gain of 1 FP. If it's 200, it means you get 1 FP every 200 ms. If it's 0, it's as quickly as possible on the server side, which means every server frame = 50 milliseconds (the server runs at 20 FPS, 1 frame = 50 ms). So the lowest value is really 50, anything below will behave just the same.
• Reducing Punch damage.. is already done in version 0.2 . I didn't advertise it very much though. So instead of 10 and 12 dmg respectively for right and left fist, it's currently 3 and 5 dmg.

[Jared]

Groovy.

* Reducing Punch damage.. is already done in version 0.2 Smile. I didn't advertise it very much though. So instead of 10 and 12 dmg respectively for right and left fist, it's currently 3 and 5 dmg.

... guess that means I just suck then... oh well.

[Axem Keigoku]

• Gaining several powers suddenly when you level up isn't very realistic in my opinion.
  • While yes, you gain access to new powers upon level up, but Powers can be applied at the very momment there is enough points to purchase it, as it is now.
• Leveling up can take a while, so the training wouldn't be progressive. There would be alternatively big steps (level up) and no progress at all (between two levels).
  • Not much longer than now. Simple difference is that instead of giving 3-8 points for an exercise, repport, mission, it would be higher numbers, such as 10-20.
• Giving all powers and levels the same amount of XP (95) kind of defeats the purpose of XP, since all powers would be treated equally, no matter how hard to master they are.
  
  • Actually, to me, it was easier to learn skating backward after having learn to skate forward. Not because the Power is more advanced than it is more requiring. Remember, practice makes perfect and thus removes challenges into bettering oneself. Also, true, it costs the same thing on the Template, but not over all : Jump 3 requires more XP than Jump 1, as you need to go through a certain number of levels, thus a certain ammount of Experience.
• Having a set path of powers for each class reduces the diversity of characters. Also, I don't see the need for this... remember the forcePowerMax of each Level in a Class can already limit the powers available, so Storm at low levels can be avoided. But ideally this should not be needed, as people should know what is possible or not (Initiates using Storm is not).
  
  • Erm, ok, this or that, they would both use the same setup : Level-wise limitations of powers. The difference here is NOT the powers unlock but the number of powers learned by 'age-group'
    
    Also, this system allows the same Template usage (65%) as BaseJka for Knights (Lv15) and thus brings back a certain balance to the general game.
• As already stated, there must be a difference between classes concerning Health/Force/Regen. They can all start with the same values (100 FP, 100 HP and 200 Regen) and finish with the values you put in the chart. But between these, I can see two ways of adjusting the progress depending on the class:
  • by changing the speed of the gain. This means Consulars would gain FP at each level faster than they get HP, Guardians would get HP faster than FP, and Sentinels would have an average speed.
  • by changing the moment at which the progress starts. Consulars would start increasing their FP from the beginning, but would only start increasing their HP from level 10 for example (this would have to be determined precisely). The contrary for Guardians, and Sentinels would start increasing FP and HP at the same time but perhaps not from the beginning.. or just slowly.

• There we agree. As I said above, I will rework the HP/FP/FR stats gains and progress.

"Basically, once you choose a new power level, you can't cancel this choice (since you learned it)."

• Partially the means to an end of the system described above : Learning takes time, and can't be forgotten on whim. More over, not a single person can learn all there is about the Force. Thus, the new system prevents (more or less) access to all powers at the same time.
  
  This would also add a certain ammount of 'thinking' before a selection of power, as you might not be able to plan on taking it later on.

_________________________________________________________

Another Idea I had while 'argueing' my points with Soh is that the First level of Character would start with 195XP (kinda goes back to the 'Base Rolls' JEDI had a while back) These 195 would give access to 2 powers at the begining of their journey as Jedi*

Most student will pick, and it is suggested, Saber Offense. They would be able to select another power of their choice, an innate hability that they have more control over.

This would affect all BaseJka Powers that would be normally available. That means it would still limit all 'Dark Side' and Team Powers.

At Character Level 2, the path goes on as normal, and some powers Lv1 will then be locked until a further level is acheived.
_________________________________________________________

And I think this would open large doors for RPing :

A Padawan levels up and notices that Push 3, Pull 3 and Hold 2 is now available for him...

Padawan: Master, I know I am somewhat experienced in using the Force on objects and others, but I do not know which area I should focus on. Control or attacks?

That means student will have to PLAN ahead upon level, on what to train during THAT level, if they wish to learn the newly unlocked powers.

¬ Axem Keigoku

[Lynee'alin]

That means student will have to PLAN ahead upon level, on what to train during THAT level, if they wish to learn the newly unlocked powers.

No, that means we will soon have superjedi running all around the place.

[Axem Keigoku]

That means student will have to PLAN ahead upon level, on what to train during THAT level, if they wish to learn the newly unlocked powers.

No, that means we will soon have superjedi running all around the place.

To me, that's what we have now... and that's what I'm trying to remove from JEDI. There is no such thing as a SuperJedi...

¬ Axem

[Alkaiser]

Super Jedi characters depend on the player, not the system. If someone is willing to put forth the effort, they can generate anything they want to; whether it be a super Jedi, or someone who barely makes the cut.

I think Soh makes some valid points about it. I think it could be altered a bit and revamped to make everyone content.

[Larkit]

No SuperJedi's?

As I've already stated, I can see flaws in both. But as Gabe is almost a living proof of (referring to the A2Beta map thread), it's best to try something, before drawing conclusions.

I can see 3 major options, when changing from the old to the new template:

1. It sucks! (Switch back? Might require some work, I haven't tried it. Or improve the new system, to make it better).
2. It's the same. (Why switch back if it's the same? Just a waste of energy and it adds some new fresh atmosphere).
3. It rocks! (No reason to change back, if it's better).

So 2/3 options, would make it turn out positive and the last could end as a positive result as well, if some work were put into it.

[Nivek Tholmai]

I just like the current system