Class Balance (Proposal 3 Page 10, Updated 288.22)

[Alkur Tekeil]

0.4.3c

That's the version we're on.
The system for powers has been changed... less than a half dozen times. It was inspired by and designed around the time KOTOR was the hot thing.

To say that what we have now is the best it can get is rather foolhardy. Especially when a well spec'd template can MURDER outright any other template of equal value. There is a problem with the current system, whether its that a class mechanic just can't be balanced for JKA, or if its simply a matter of altering the values and numbers and progression for the class system.
It.is.not.balanced.presently.

The issue with wanting to change the powers system from its current state is not a matter of works or doesn't, but rather it is an issue of quality.

I can live in a cave, or I can live in a house. Both achieve the goal of shelter. Just as we can manage just fine with the current system, but I'd prefer to see something suitably adjusted from a game mechanic perspective. So no, I'm not going to be deterred from playing, nor will Ron, but we both know that there is a better adjustment from the core game for a powers system for the RPmod.

[Tomoran]

stuff

No need to mince my words here. I'm not basically saying that, I am -saying- that those who don't want it to change have contributed their opinion as it is and there's nowhere further for it to go. This is like sitting around with a few people and asking, "What can we do to change X" and someone says, "I don't want to change X" and you shrug and go "duly noted" and then continue your discussion on how to change it.

I'm not the one who decides if it gets changed or not, but I am going to continue discussing the possibility of how to change it, regardless. I acknowledge that you or anybody else believes that the system is 'fine' the way it is and carry on.

As far as explaining what's wrong with the system that 'seems' to be working, I have no idea where to start. I thought I went over my disparity with the numbers and the execution in the first two pages. If you think it's fine, I applaud your ... acceptance? I don't know. I like thinking of ways to make things better.

What an awful concept.

[Ametha Tasia]

... Moving onto something more constructive.

Well, if we could make a system were we would somehow customize our characters by spending Xp for force points and hit points, I think it'd be cool. Then you can call yourself whatever you like, if you enjoy the old classes, and a guardian, for example, can have more fp than a person who calls himself/herself a consular.

And... well, that's about my take on it. If I recall correctly, this is the system Cor proposed at one point.

[Tomoran]

I'd be very open to a system with "perks" or "by level" upgrades a la Fallout 3 or such if it's possible, it will likely be one of the later proposals. The one I am working on right now is more of a generalized 'by route' class structure with less difference between the options.

However, since some people are bringing up the "don't understand why the system is broke" I will again go over some of the reasons that I believe the current system is flawed.

1. The shortest force regeneration time is 50ms. The server runs at 20 'updates' a second so the most you can get is 20 force a second. Even if my account says that I have 1ms Force Regeneration, I assure you that I don't get 1000 Force a second. This means that Sentinels have 'maximum' Force Regeneration when they go from level 11 to level 12 (where they go from 60ms to 50ms) and Guardians achieve this from level 15 to 16 (where they go from 55ms to 45ms) and Consulars from Level 8 to 9 (where they go from 55ms to 30ms)

What does this mean? Everybody has way too much Force Regen. Everybody. People don't like spamming force? It's because everybody can do it. Some people have more Force than others but everybody gets their Force back at a very fast, very silly rate. The difference between me dumping my Force to 0 and someone with 100 Force dumping theirs to 0 is that it takes me about 3 more seconds to waste the extra 90 Force and another 5 seconds to regenerate it all back. The difference between me and an equal-level Sentinel? About nothing. They have 20 less Force, the same regen and 50 more hp. Yeah, seems 'fine' the way it is.

2. Some force powers are straight up pointless. There's little reason to level the following:

-Jump from 4 to 5
The gain here is extremely small, anybody who has seen jump 4 against jump 5 knows that it's honestly less than one person in height difference in jumps.
-Speed from 2 to 5
Same speed gain throughout, higher levels only useful to Guardians to gain the longer 'duration' without spending more Force. Sentinels and Consulars can afford to spam lower levels to gain the same effect.
-Heal from 4 to 5
Another 50 health healed per usage, only really useful for Guardians because they don't have infinite energy. Sentinels and consulars can spam heal 4 because they aren't limited by energy.
-Hold from 3 to 4 or 5
Is blocked by 10 points. Absorb 1 keeps any level of hold at bay or neutralizes it. I can be a telekinetic master capable of hurling spaceships and crushing vehicles but I can't pick up a ten year old because they learned how to absorb.
-Rage from anything to anything
Aside from not being done yet, which I understand, this power is just abysmal. It's more or less draining your hp while your foe kites you around waiting for you to be a slow, easy kill.
-Force Meld from 3 to 4 or 5
I cannot honestly fathom anybody needing to transfuse another person with 60 or 75 energy unless said person is holding down storm indefinitely and needs one person behind them spamming meld to let them do it forever and ever and ever. Everybody regenerates Force at ridiculous rates, and it's nice to use on Guardians but one high-level Meld and they're pretty much topped off as it is.

This, of course, doesn't mean that these aren't acceptable things to level up through roleplay or for the sheer sake of sticking to what your character is good at or not, but I think that the mechanics of these issues should be ADDRESSED and the notion that it isn't necessary to the continuation of the roleplay isn't a valid excuse to not look at them.

More to come later.

[Sebastin Creed]

I'd be very open to a system with "perks" or "by level" upgrades a la Fallout 3 or such if it's possible, it will likely be one of the later proposals. The one I am working on right now is more of a generalized 'by route' class structure with less difference between the options.

However, since some people are bringing up the "don't understand why the system is broke" I will again go over some of the reasons that I believe the current system is flawed.

1. The shortest force regeneration time is 50ms. The server runs at 20 'updates' a second so the most you can get is 20 force a second. Even if my account says that I have 1ms Force Regeneration, I assure you that I don't get 1000 Force a second. This means that Sentinels have 'maximum' Force Regeneration when they go from level 11 to level 12 (where they go from 60ms to 50ms) and Guardians achieve this from level 15 to 16 (where they go from 55ms to 45ms) and Consulars from Level 8 to 9 (where they go from 55ms to 30ms)

What does this mean? Everybody has way too much Force Regen. Everybody. People don't like spamming force? It's because everybody can do it. Some people have more Force than others but everybody gets their Force back at a very fast, very silly rate. The difference between me dumping my Force to 0 and someone with 100 Force dumping theirs to 0 is that it takes me about 3 more seconds to waste the extra 90 Force and another 5 seconds to regenerate it all back. The difference between me and an equal-level Sentinel? About nothing. They have 20 less Force, the same regen and 50 more hp. Yeah, seems 'fine' the way it is.

2. Some force powers are straight up pointless. There's little reason to level the following:

-Jump from 4 to 5
The gain here is extremely small, anybody who has seen jump 4 against jump 5 knows that it's honestly less than one person in height difference in jumps.
-Speed from 2 to 5
Same speed gain throughout, higher levels only useful to Guardians to gain the longer 'duration' without spending more Force. Sentinels and Consulars can afford to spam lower levels to gain the same effect.
-Heal from 4 to 5
Another 50 health healed per usage, only really useful for Guardians because they don't have infinite energy. Sentinels and consulars can spam heal 4 because they aren't limited by energy.
-Hold from 3 to 4 or 5
Is blocked by 10 points. Absorb 1 keeps any level of hold at bay or neutralizes it. I can be a telekinetic master capable of hurling spaceships and crushing vehicles but I can't pick up a ten year old because they learned how to absorb.
-Rage from anything to anything
Aside from not being done yet, which I understand, this power is just abysmal. It's more or less draining your hp while your foe kites you around waiting for you to be a slow, easy kill.
-Force Meld from 3 to 4 or 5
I cannot honestly fathom anybody needing to transfuse another person with 60 or 75 energy unless said person is holding down storm indefinitely and needs one person behind them spamming meld to let them do it forever and ever and ever. Everybody regenerates Force at ridiculous rates, and it's nice to use on Guardians but one high-level Meld and they're pretty much topped off as it is.

This, of course, doesn't mean that these aren't acceptable things to level up through roleplay or for the sheer sake of sticking to what your character is good at or not, but I think that the mechanics of these issues should be ADDRESSED and the notion that it isn't necessary to the continuation of the roleplay isn't a valid excuse to not look at them.

More to come later.

Okay, see those points there I can agree with and I'd like to see some change on. I'd like to see a bit more contrast in the levels of different powers. I just had a fear that you were looking to weaken the Consulars in HP even more while increasing Guardian further. I mean, not that it bothers me in people but I do enjoy a good ol' spar every now in then - if you are going to make it pointless for me to get involved I may as well never spar again *heh*

However, the force points, the contrast in slowing or increasing force regen is good. I do still believe the Consular should be able to use more powers at once than another - perhaps work on the perks that will strongly make a difference to people when choosing their class.

For example... and dare I say it, perhaps even making Consulars unable to use staffs and stuff, while the guardians can and the sents', well that's a something I'm not sure what you can do with. That way you might be able to cease those that will go a Consular because they are already good at saber fights, take away the benefit of expanding that and you might see people having to make a choice based on their character.

Might not be the greatest idea, but I for one wouldn't mind that - I mean, I planned on learning staff at some point as Sebastin because I like it, but being a Consular means more to me on principle and if it means losing the access to staffs and the like, then fine.

only problem with that though is staying logged into my account and playing another character/simulation and not being able to go Staff or Dual. So that would have to be worked out...

Anwyays, I'm simply throwing out thoughts here, I'll wait till you post more details Tomo.

[Tomoran]

The 'spar' issue I wanted to address with the 'saber duel' command, the thing that you press k or whatever with, that enters you into the 'has become engaged in a duel with x' thing? I'd like for that to default the two 'duelers' to 100/100 hp/shields, regardless of level or class, for the purpose of the spar duration.

This may be a suspension of disbelief but anybody taking anymore than one slice on 'high' setting seems silly but spars would be ... decidedly odd and less fun if they were over in one swipe.

I have more thoughts on shield capacity, how to work around spars, etc. - I will keep posting my ideas throughout the course of the thread. Thanks for the input, Seb.

And it's not that I want Consulars to lose even more HP, maybe a small fraction of their HP but I want Sentinels to assuredly lose some of their HP and probably some of their Force since they get, as it stands, the best of both worlds right now. If I am going to lose to guardians because they're tanks, that's fine. I can understand that. However, Sentinels shouldn't get 90% of the tankhood of a Guardian and 90% of the Force-hood of a Consular. I don't think 50% is fair either, but their values right now are just too high in general.

EDIT: In addition, Consulars can't get saber offense 4 until level 21 and saber defense 4 until 22, this serves as a 'can't use staff/duals' deterrent since the proposal is to make those two options open to those with level 4 of those powers.

[Sebastin Creed]

Ah right so you need both level 4 on defence and offense before getting the staffs?

That seems fine.

Also, I'd like to point out one other thing. I like the idea behind the, being able to surprise attack someone with a push or pull from behind, however with that said I do think it should be blocked by people with a higher level on most occasions. I think a Consular highly attuned in the force shouldnt easily be knocked down by a kid because he got the sneak on it... saber is sufficient anyways most times (bless the lunge), rather than knocking them down first before mocking them with the swipe.

Perhaps some of the other classes sure, seems plausable I suppose, but like someone said before - not a highly trained telekinesis user.

I also like the idea with Sense, when you said they can't move around with it - that is a pretty good suggestion for RP (For the record, I'd still be agreeing to this as a Padawan too) - sorry but too much 'Sense on, wander around' goes on. I'd like to see this power do this restriction to get some RP going.

I'm also sure some of these ideas were mentioned before, but I can't remember what was said or done about it. Like you said on the offense/defense level 4 would open staff and dual to the Consular, could we do the same for other powers as well. Sort of a structured building template, on average.

For example, someone said push and pull level 1 opens saber throw level 1 and so on so forth... perhaps this could be adapted to other things such as a mixture of push and jump = force speed. I just strikes me odd at times if one is acelerate around the place but can hardly pull or push an object to and from themselves. Though, I suppose this can be down to personal restriction, for our future generations it's just an added extra.

Really depends what was said on the idea before though I suppose! (Has no knowledge of what was...)

[Tomoran]

I thought about breaking powers down into their control/alter/sense groups but honestly that becomes excessively complicated and requiring that people know push and pull before they can get saber throw seems difficult to implement hardcoded and should be left up to masters in their training of students. For example, I don't think any standing Knight will let a student grasp the ability of throwing a lightsaber before the punk can stack 50 crates with their eyes closed.

That being said, I am alright with higher levels blocking telekinesis from all sides but I think it should be a perk reserved for level 5 of the abilities, granting a 'mastery' over them. I also think that push and pull should cost 'slightly' more, while powers like [every other power in the template] should cost a lot more, at higher levels, anyway.

To get Storm 5, I had to spend 150 points. 50 to get it to level 3, and then it starts to ramp up in cost. Not that I think that there's a lot of reason to go from 4 to 5, and I did it mostly for roleplay reasons (for the record, the only difference between level 4 and 5 is that 5 cannot be blocked by absorb 4, it requires absorb 5) but I wouldn't disagree with Level 5 powers costing more like 250 to 300 points.

This would keep some of us from having oodles of level 4 skills (the best level, where they all start getting ridiculously powerful) so that we have to be more careful about what our character is capable of, and things being finite, where level 22-25 people just go 'lol whatev' and throw points into things since they have infinite.

And the original suggestion was Offense 4 for 'staff' and Defense 4 for 'duals' since I believe the consensus is that Jar'Kai is a more defensive form while the 'double-bladed' variant is a more offensive or aggressive type.

Not both. Saber Defense 4 and 5 already offer absurd parrying (whether or not people agree on this fact, pretend they have seen the data or done the testing, I assure you I know a lot about the mechanics of the game) and Offense 4 and 5 offer loliwin stance and Tavion stance.

[Maloush]

Many of these ideas would take months to implement and even longer to adjust to. Currently, the game mechanic don't interfere with the day-to-day RPs. Sure, fix the HP and FP systems a bit, but overhauling the whole system seems illogical at this point.

[Sebastin Creed]

Sorry for doing this to your post Tomo, but it might be easier to keep track of my own writing doing it this way (tis actually a first for me!).

I thought about breaking powers down into their control/alter/sense groups but honestly that becomes excessively complicated and requiring that people know push and pull before they can get saber throw seems difficult to implement hardcoded and should be left up to masters in their training of students. For example, I don't think any standing Knight will let a student grasp the ability of throwing a lightsaber before the punk can stack 50 crates with their eyes closed.

That's fair enough, if it can't be coded not much point debating it but yeah I guess it's down to the mentors themselves then.

That being said, I am alright with higher levels blocking telekinesis from all sides but I think it should be a perk reserved for level 5 of the abilities, granting a 'mastery' over them. I also think that push and pull should cost 'slightly' more, while powers like [every other power in the template] should cost a lot more, at higher levels, anyway.

Perhaps a perk from level 2-3 onwards? I know I wouldn't be overly happy with an Initiate knocking me down with a level 1 push because he managed to circle behind me after I accidently RDFA.

To get Storm 5, I had to spend 150 points. 50 to get it to level 3, and then it starts to ramp up in cost. Not that I think that there's a lot of reason to go from 4 to 5, and I did it mostly for roleplay reasons (for the record, the only difference between level 4 and 5 is that 5 cannot be blocked by absorb 4, it requires absorb 5) but I wouldn't disagree with Level 5 powers costing more like 250 to 300 points.

This would keep some of us from having oodles of level 4 skills (the best level, where they all start getting ridiculously powerful) so that we have to be more careful about what our character is capable of, and things being finite, where level 22-25 people just go 'lol whatev' and throw points into things since they have infinite.

I would be happy to see the higher level 5 powers increase dramatically in points to create a gap in time for achievement, since it is mastery as you say... however the cost of the force powers I'm not so sure about, where I do truely understand your desire to perhaps have it more realistic, strategy based when it comes to using it, I think at least from level 2-3-*perhaps 4* should have a slightly higher cost but not a great difference I would say.

And the original suggestion was Offense 4 for 'staff' and Defense 4 for 'duals' since I believe the consensus is that Jar'Kai is a more defensive form while the 'double-bladed' variant is a more offensive or aggressive type.

Not both. Saber Defense 4 and 5 already offer absurd parrying (whether or not people agree on this fact, pretend they have seen the data or done the testing, I assure you I know a lot about the mechanics of the game) and Offense 4 and 5 offer loliwin stance and Tavion stance.

That seems fine to me, the extra stances could do with a bit of tweaking I guess but that should be the benefits of the Guardians. Battlemaster is a great title given to only those that truely master the arts forms and well, with those stances you are certain to achieve that so if you want that recognition it should be something you have to work hard to achieve.

Though that's just me...

[Tomoran]

Many of these ideas would take months to implement and even longer to adjust to. Currently, the game mechanic don't interfere with the day-to-day RPs. Sure, fix the HP and FP systems a bit, but overhauling the whole system seems illogical at this point.

Begging the question.

Which is to say, you assert something that requires proof that you have no proof for.

How do you know that it would take months? What makes it illogical?

That it might take time is not a good reason to stand in the way of progress. It hasn't stopped us from getting here and it shouldn't stop us from moving forward.

EDIT: Being knocked over isn't an overly big deal, but getting pushed in the middle of an attack generally doesn't knock people down. I'd suggest that level 1 of telekinesis not knock anybody down, and I believe I said that in the original post, but level 2-3 of Push/pull should definetly knockdown if targetted to the back, and most 'initiates' don't have push or pull 2.

DOUBLE EDIT: And I have no proposed changes to the damage, speeds or anything to any of the saber stances as I think the tweaking of the saber system is a much more sensitive subject that would require a better system for it to exist in first.

[Iverian Prey]

My one and only post in this thread follows:

Wow. Just...wow, at all this. The attitude in here is ridiculous.

[Sebastin Creed]

My one and only post in this thread follows:

Wow. Just...wow, at all this. The attitude in here is ridiculous.

Hah, can say that about multiple parts of the forums Ive.

Though, I do like some of the tweak ideas personally, my opinion. Really it's all down to Soh though, if it's too much extra work then quiet frankly I won't mind him declining to do it.

Though, if its easy to implement and interests enough people with its certain tweaks then why not?

[Tomoran]

I've already talked to Soh about the idea, and he shared some of the numbers in the mod with me. There has been no definitive "yes" or "no" as to whether or not he would implement any specific proposal but he has invited me to attempt to look over the numbers and come up with ideas.

A concept that not everybody here has shared, but all we're doing here is coming up with ideas, not posting changelogs, so don't read this as if I have any authority to do anything. I'm just trying to help Soh with RPMod and JEDI by proxy since RPMod is what enables us to do much of what we do.

[Cynthia]

So far only one official proposal has been posted Tomoran. Could you post some more?

EDIT: Oh I didn't see that one lol. Still don't like it.