Discussion: Guns & Ammo

[Sared Kilvan]

Branching off from Aayla's thread, I'd like to raise up some more discussion on the realism/effects/mechanics of firearms in RPMod here. This subject has been broached in many forms before:

Modified Weapons (Affecting their firing effects)
Weapon Overheats (Affecting how long a weapon can be fired)
Damage Scaling (Affecting overall weapon damage)

I'm going to go out on a limb and state my opinion on one crucial fact that this is centered on: you cannot rely on the player to accurately portray someone wielding a firearm. Thusly, I consider the "Fix the players, fix the problem" argument a moot point. We're not just talking about JEDI here, we're talking about how people function. In any game, you have to create a mechanical system with established rules, boundaries, and limitations within which the player is able to act. (Rules like gravity) Simply saying that "You're not playing the right way" does not work. This is game mechanics 101.

Now that I've got that out of the way, I'd like to summarize a few different suggestions that have been raised already that I believe are worth hashing out, namely:

• Reducing overall weapon accuracy
• Drastically reducing ammo capacity
• Adjusting weapon knock back (dependent on weapon type)
• Adjusting accuracy while moving

Some technical considerations to keep in mind:

• Weapon firetime can be adjusted
• Currently, weapons work on line-of-sight (point here, shoot, projectile goes there) accuracy is (confirmed) an adjustable factor
• Weapon ammunition is extremely high currently, as giving any player any weapon automatically grants them 999 ammo
• Weapon range is extremely high currently, maxing out at 8192 units, and for certain weapons, wouldn't hurt to reign in a bit (particularly blasters: they're not lasers, and they don't have unlimited range)

With all that in mind, what are some changes that could be made to the existing weapon behavior, starting within weapons.dat?

@Soh: Can we use this? I can't remember whether or not game is accessible or if it's just cgame and client. Or whatever. (From Q3A's g_weapon.c)

Code: Select all

r = random() * M_PI * 2.0f;
u = sin(r) * crandom() * spread * 16;
r = cos(r) * crandom() * spread * 16;
VectorMA (muzzle, 8192*16, forward, end);
VectorMA (end, r, right, end);
VectorMA (end, u, up, end);

If not...(from JKA's own g_weapon.c)

Code: Select all

// E11 Blaster
//---------
#define BLASTER_SPREAD				1.6f//1.2f
#define BLASTER_VELOCITY			2300
#define BLASTER_DAMAGE				20

[Delmi N'jork]

All of the above makes sense to me.

[Ametha Tasia]

Yeah, if it's possible, this has my full support. Great idea, Sared!

[Illrian Damaris]

Its a very nice idea, and if it can be done than I'm in support of it!
However...

Weapon ammunition is extremely high currently, as giving any player any weapon automatically grants them 999 ammo

You're not entirely accurate there..

The only time it grants someone with 999 ammo is if you merc that person.
Merc'ing yourself and then dropping the weapon doesn't give the other person 999 ammo, nor does if it automatically comes with an account (such as the soldier account). Because last I checked, weapons (example: E-11) only has 300 for its ammo.

So, to my knowledge (unless there's a secret way I've missed out on for 8 years) you only get 999 ammo if you get merc'd.

[Ametha Tasia]

That's true. And you can set the amount you want the account to have, if we're being account-specific, but generally, an person gets 200 Ammo from a weapon, if they're merc'd they get the 999.

[Amoné Fayden]

Hmmmm...
I'm not sure.

I think some weapons already are kind of innacurate.
On top of that, not every gun should be affected by this as not every gun is innacurate and there also needs to be SOME degree of professionalism with soldiers, assassins etc.
If a soldier can't hit something 20m away for sh*t then he's not much of a soldier.

The only, and I mean only way I could get behind this, is if the increased spread (inaccuracy) was only applied to:

• Repeater (because it's over used)
• Concussion Rifle (because it just annihilates and it would make sense given it's recoil.)

Other weapons like the E-11 have 2 firing modes. The secondary fire already has very poor accuracy to balance it's increased fire rate. The more controlled primary fire has a reduced fire rate to compensate for it's increased accuracy.

I'm going to go out on a limb and state my opinion on one crucial fact that this is centered on: you cannot rely on the player to accurately portray someone wielding a firearm. Thusly, I consider the "Fix the players, fix the problem" argument a moot point. We're not just talking about JEDI here, we're talking about how people function. In any game, you have to create a mechanical system with established rules, boundaries, and limitations within which the player is able to act. (Rules like gravity) Simply saying that "You're not playing the right way" does not work. This is game mechanics 101.

I'd argue that this is because mission hosters / directors are far too soft and outright let people away with it.
If players cannot be trusted, as quite rightly you mentioned, then they should be dealt with like any other lamer in the community. So far no punishment, warning, advice or denial from taking part in future gunner roles has been exercised from what I've seen.
The same offenders (Including some Knights) keep coming back and ruining the experience and nobody does anything about it.
Quietly b*tching about it on MSN with a friend doesn't fix these sort of issues.
They need to be tackled first before taking the communities toys away and punishing everyone for the mistakes of a few repeat offenders.

I'd happily supply a list if somebody wants to get started!


EDIT:

And also! I am down with reducing accuracy when running.
Illrian already mentioned the ammo issue. (Where you only get 999 when merc'd. Normally - your ammo cuts off at 200-300 regardless of how many more of that particular gun is thrown at you.)
As for damage that would depend on what guns and whether the damage goes up or down.

[Zeak Dystiny]

I find damage to be an iffy thing to alter. While it'll compensate for being 'forced' to walk/remain stationary to get the best accuracy, I always saw that the current damages fair for Jedi. This is because quite frankly sometimes we'll get shot when we actually shouldn't have taken that hit, but due to the game and its mechanics, we did.

If Force/Push/Pull spam wasn't an issue anymore, the damages of rifles wouldn't be either because a Jedi can easily be taken with proper coordination or through the advantage of numbers, as this has happened many times before. Everything else sounds alright.

[Sared Kilvan]

@Amoné: This is the same paragraph, pre-editing.

I'm going to go out on a limb and state my opinion on one crucial fact that this centered on: you cannot rely on the player to accurately portray someone wielding a firearm. Thusly, I consider the "Fix the players, fix the problem" argument a moot point at this case. We're not just talking about JEDI here, we're talking about how people function, and if a public release of RPMod is ever going to see the light of day (another topic that I'd rather not debate here), then the play style of your average player has to be taken into consideration as well, not just the behavior of a relatively small test group. As a result, you have to create a system within which there are established mechanics, rules, and limitations within which the player is able to act. Simply saying that "You're not playing the right way" does not work. This is game mechanics 101.

Lines removed for obvious reasons. Sorry mate, I respect your opinion on the matter, but the argument for better players doesn't hold water for me. The system as it stands leaves room for abuse, and while you can never fully remove the possibility for abuse, you can reduce it greatly. Improve the system first, then improve the player.


Regarding specific weapons: I would get behind weapons like the E-11 and the Repeater having slightly higher innaccuracy, as well slightly reduced damage. Other weapons (with the exception of possibly the Tenloss) I think can be more realistic if we do something as simple as an increase in damage, as well as increase the time between shots. Explosives I also believe should be cranked, double their current damage output.

My underlying philosophy is this: weapons are dangerous, but thanks to their function and underwhelming capacity for damage, they present the player with no real threat, and any reflection of this must be forced (read: role-played) on the players end. Take it from me, having a gun pointed at you is threatening, and I think our weapons should reflect this.

[Zeak Dystiny]

Repeating myself here but how much do you intend to increase the damages of weapons? Because I still don't think they should be upped too much. Right now when we saber someone, we're extremely open. In the SW world? It wouldn't be as clean cut. While it sounds Matrix'y I'm sure we'd be able to 'dodge' or know where these bolts were and easily dispose of a weapon. We cannot do that here at all. When we're forced with combat and not pulling/pushing, we have to swing and in a few cases, get a few bolts to the face in the process.

What if we're dealing with someone, and another guy spawns in, runs around the corner, we have our back to him, and *bang bang*, releases a few bolts into our back and we're K.O'ed. It's sad to say 'in real life SW' but I'm going to say it anyways, if SW was real life, technically we would know that guy is coming up behind us and we would be able to turn around quickly, deflect that bolt and act accordingly. It's all fine to say there should be more threat when it comes to rifles, but if the Jedi are limited in responses to reach the proper potential of what a Jedi can do, it isn't right. This is even more so when and if Tomoran's class changes followed by force alterations are brought in, Jedi can easily be considered slightly weaker because of it. Even with those changes gunners do become stronger, if people know how to play them right.

So because of game mechanics and its restrictions, and of what is to possibly come, I do not favour having a significant damage increase in terms of rifles.

[Amoné Fayden]

Yes to:

• Decreased accuracy when firing and running. (If possible)
• Remove knockback when shot by smaller guns.
• Decrease accuracy / damage of Repeater. (It's the clan favourite and is too overpowered in it's current state. Bad combination IMO.)
• Decrease firing rate of our "launcher" weapons. (Concussion Rifle, Rocket Launcher etc)
• Decrease firing rate of Alternative Fire. (Flak Cannon and Repeater mainly)
• GREATLY increase the ammo usage for Repeater secondary fire. Perhaps so that 2 shots emptied an entire ammo bar.

No to:

• Decreasing accuracy on all weapons.
• Decreasing the current range of weapons.

Still don't think this will change people's attitudes to playing gunners and we'll still experience uncontrolled FFA's but I guess that's not much of a concern from what I'm hearing.

[Sared Kilvan]

Repeating myself here but how much do you intend to increase the damages of weapons? Because I still don't think they should be upped too much.

@Zeak How much do you think would be reasonable? How much would be too little? How much would be too much?

Also this isn't my change (I'm not that possessive ), this is just a discussion thread to figure out what adjustments would best work.


@moné Hypothetically speaking, what would you think of the secondary fire for the repeater could be made into more of, say, a three-round burst similar to the original JK? The existing secondary fire could be pushed into another gun all together, like a claymore/grenade launcher?

[Sebastin Creed]

Shame it's not possible to seperate the Repeaters secondary fire from the primary fire.

i.e. You have a full ammo bar, plus two energy grenade launchers.

The accuracy of the repeater at long distance though is already decreased if I'm honest though, only close up does it get more deadly (I saw this at the simulation).

[Sared Kilvan]

Shame it's not possible to seperate the Repeaters secondary fire from the primary fire.

I'm looking into that, at least until Soh comes in and lays the smack-down on my investigative ass.

[Amoné Fayden]

@moné Hypothetically speaking, what would you think of the secondary fire for the repeater could be made into more of, say, a three-round burst similar to the original JK? The existing secondary fire could be pushed into another gun all together, like a claymore/grenade launcher?

Well considering 1 burst from the repeater secondary fire can waste a regular student, three would be over-kill.

In the recent "invasion" exercise that happened, I noticed the first thing people did when I ducked behind cover was spam alt fire.
"Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom"

It'd be nice if it were just:
"boom, boom, click... click.... click... click..."

That would be so satisfying but that's just me!

So yeah, I'd rather allow people the option when to use their 2 shots seperately than fire a single annihilating burst.
Alternatively, because ammo is shared, if they use most of their ammo spraying and praying, then they might only have enough for 1 "boom". (Presuming they were not merc'd)

If, like Sebastin mentioned we could have a seperate ammo counter, giving gunners 2-3 alt fire grenades, then that would be much, much better. I'm aware that's a long shot though!

[Sared Kilvan]

@moné Hypothetically speaking, what would you think of the secondary fire for the repeater could be made into more of, say, a three-round burst similar to the original JK? The existing secondary fire could be pushed into another gun all together, like a claymore/grenade launcher?

Well considering 1 burst from the repeater secondary fire can waste a regular student, three would be over-kill.

No no no, I mean a three-round burst of regular bullets/shots/pellets/BB's, like in the original Jedi Knight. The equivalent of firing off multiple alternating barrels at once, in a wider spray, much higher inaccuracy.