360° Pull 5

[Sared Kilvan]

Affects: Powers - Push/Pull

Summary: Replicate the 360° Push animation/ability for Pull 5.

Suggestion: Believe me, I checked, and as obvious as it seems, this hasn't been suggested before. Simple enough though, same mechanics (cooldown, range, effect, knockdown) as Push 5, inverted.

Implementation: Should be a copy&past of code in w_force.c, but with inverted values for the trDelta animevents classes, and another copy&paste in fx_force.c. (Best guess on those for now.)

References: RPMod documentation, JAMP source code.

[Tomoran]

Why? Why nerf Pull 5 like this?

[Aslyn Denethorn]

Honestly, I like this. Gets a little irksome when the sole benefit of Pull 5 is a longer range than Pull 4, in turn a longer range than Pull 3. Doesn't exactly inspire people to want to purchase the ability - I think most people do so purely because it rounds off their template for 'Core' Abilities. It'd be nice if it actually had some 'oomph' to it.

[Illrian Damaris]

I have to agree with Aslyn's post.
It makes it where there's a noticeable difference between the levels, and that's really why there's different levels of skills in the first place. So I have to say go for it..

[Sared Kilvan]

Why not? As it stands, Pull4/5 have the same efficacy as Pull3, just with extended range. I'd rather see the strength of Pull4 increased, with the range of Pull5 (+10%). Apart from the measly 5% range increase over Pull4 (which means very little considering the relatively small size of JKA's maps, Pull5 serves no real purpose other than having slightly longer reach. Combine an AoE pull effect with another ability (cone storm or any number of particularly lethal lightsaber swings) and you have a potent combination.

[Sared Kilvan]

Adjustment to the original suggestion, also affecting Push5.

As it stands, the three-second animation for Push5 leaves the ability extremely open and vulnerable, particularly considering how little time it takes for the targeted player to recover. This same wind-up/cool-down/window of vulnerability wouldn't work for Pull5 seeing as it puts your target into prime ass-kicking position (in your face), seeing as the recovery animation is extremely short and nullifies the effect of the knockdown.

A remedy to this would be to change the push/pull5 animation to something drastically shorter (suggested, the side-stab animation of akimbo sabers for pushing, and reversed for pulling), with a shorter cool-down (2 seconds) with a heftier FP cost.

Please keep in mind that this is all just speculation and theorycrafting until the new classes.dat is implemented. (When, not if.)

[Amoné Fayden]

Personally, I think Push 5 is a bit of a joke.
It does nothing but irritate and it's "practical" uses are only for "Look how powerful I am!" RP.
Half the time needs to be covered up with "((oops...))".

I'd hate to see Pull go the same way.
I'm all up for powers having a point beyond level 3, but not like this and I really don't have much in the way of alternatives. I like the way Pull works and the only way to make worthwhile taking it to level 5 would be to severely nerf levels 1-3 to spread out the growth.
And I don't even like THAT idea too much!

That's about the long and short of it for me.

[Sared Kilvan]

What then would be a form of the power that exemplifies the mastery of the ability, and deviates from the 'straightforward' usage of it? I personally believe that just making a stronger, straightforward version of the ability that serves no real purpose other than countering the same rank of the ability (read: behaves just like rank 3, just stronger) would be selling short on many fronts, and doesn't begin to take advantage of what the engine is capable of.

[Sai Akiada]

I'm all for making push and pull 5 more complimentary. By this I mean, lower push 5 to equal the strength of pull 5 as it currently is. Never been a fan of push 5's over power with zero consequence as it is.

But that's just me. Nice idea ^ but no thanks.

[Nira'kalen'nuruodo]

If would be in favour of this if the 360-degree attack was optional (i.e. crouch + Push/Pull, otherwise perform a regular Push/Pull).

[Amoné Fayden]

What then would be a form of the power that exemplifies the mastery of the ability, and deviates from the 'straightforward' usage of it? I personally believe that just making a stronger, straightforward version of the ability that serves no real purpose other than countering the same rank of the ability (read: behaves just like rank 3, just stronger) would be selling short on many fronts, and doesn't begin to take advantage of what the engine is capable of.

But Sared, a lot of powers are going to be like that.
You can't expect to have the 5th level of every ability perform some sort of over-powered "limit break" because things would just get ridiculous.

Mastery of something shouldn't be a matter of how sparkly it looks or how easy it is to pwn people with in a single button press.
Mastery of something should be how you, as a player, can use that ability to your advantage.

This sort of suggestion is like saying you'd rather give somebody a bigger gun rather than teach them how to simply use a basic one.

I mean, look at Lightsaber Defense. Is Level 5 going to be changed so that, as a "Master" of Lightsaber defense, we perform something epic with it? Or likewise Speed, at level 5 should it allow us to instantly teleport anywhere we'd like? Of course not, that would be silly!

So all I'm saying is, I don't mind powers having a re-think to make them more worthwhile to take beyond level 1-3 (Speed & Fury for example). But not at the expense of enjoyable gameplay and "realism". (I use the term loosely here.)

[Jenny Wrix]

What then would be a form of the power that exemplifies the mastery of the ability, and deviates from the 'straightforward' usage of it?

Perhaps rather than a 360 explosion, it can be a slowly charged push/pull, the longer you hold down push/pull the stronger it will be. Push 5 being a huge cone forward, knocking everything back at huge range, and pull five quickly dragging everything in front of you closer. Or something.

Although Amone has a point.

[Sared Kilvan]

So all I'm saying is, I don't mind powers having a re-think to make them more worthwhile to take beyond level 1-3 (Speed & Fury for example). But not at the expense of enjoyable gameplay and "realism". (I use the term loosely here.)

That's really all I'm looking for. I'm not looking for a fancy sort of limit break, I'm looking for something that makes progression beyond rank 3 in each respective ability worthwhile, even if the mechanics of the change are minor.

[Amoné Fayden]

That's really all I'm looking for.

Nira makes a great suggestion there and I believe it's been discussed in the past.
In fact, thinking about it - if the 360 pull was to go ahead, I'd say that when it is performed, the radius in which is pulls should be drastically shortened. I'd suggest the same principle for Push 5.

Right now, it's the strength of the 360 that I completely disagree with.

I'd happily accept the ability if it didn't send me across the map while I am already a decent distance away.

[Sared Kilvan]

Just had a random thought. What if push/pull5 were target-dependent? On mouse-over, the push/pull only affected that the selected target, but if it was un-aimed (read: 'unfocused'), the effect was broader in a 180-degree facing? Possibly even a 190 or 200 degree facing, that way the same 'bubble' of push5 could still be pulled off by aiming straight up.