Weapons Re-Design

[Sared Kilvan]

I'd like to keep this thread separate for the purpose of discussing the way weapons are implemented in classes and into the game as a whole.

With that being said, I would like to take a quick poll on the idea of re-designing the entire weapons (guns, specifically, not touching the lightsaber combat) from the ground-up, with a focus on three primary points:

• Realism
• Fit-to-Setting
• Balance

Some specific notes on each point.

Realism : Right now, the weapons set featured in Jedi Academy are built and geared towards game-play, not realism, not in the slightest way. Weapons are optimized for a faster, twitch-based style of play. While slowing down things like rate-of-fire, reload speed, and adjusting ammo usage may be a good place to start, I believe the core mechanics, the more root functionality of each weapon can be re-thought and re-designed in a way that not only makes each weapon equally fun and entertaining to use, but also creates a challenging and unique way to approach armed conflict.

Fit-to-Setting : For one, this is Star Wars, a fantastical and amazing world. Secondly, we're in an era and setting nearly three-hundred years after the Battle of Yavin. For all intents and purposes, there are three-hundred plus year-old weapons still in service. Technology has advanced since then, just like it has since the time of the Old Republic, and I believe that both the form and the function of every weapon can and should be updated to reflect the current era. Also, this gives us the opportunity to implement more exotic weaponry that hasn't seen it's way into Star Wars games before. Similar to the way that the Wookie bowcaster and the concussion rifle have been portrayed as archetypal weaponry for both of these races, we can take this opportunity to introduce similar racial weaponry (saving the basics for the general 'military' uses, i.e. pistol+carbine+rifle).

Balance : Not to re-hash my earlier point, but the weapons are geared towards competitive game play, not realism. Certain weapon types are favored due to their mechanics, and have functionality that give them a clear-cut advantage. Specific weapons have obvious advantage not just in certain situations, but across the board, in any situation (read: anything that uses metallic bolt ammunition). It is my view that equally balanced guns (when the skill of the users is equal) stand an equal chance against each other (see any game built on the Unreal engine, or even the original Quake 3 Arena).

Combine these three ideas and you are left with weapons that function realistically, look appropriate to the setting at hand, and have solid tactical uses in multiple situations. With this in mind moving forward, I strongly believe that we can better equip our militaries, mercenaries, criminals and gun-slingers to create a realistic, unique, and immersive role-play experience not found anywhere else.


A quick note regarding specific mechanics.

I'm still working on tracking down the specific code and classes for certain functions (thank you Raven), but I believe that a re-load mechanic (or even an overheat as it's been discussed in other threads) is possible. For the purposes of this poll however, I am thinking as broadly and wide-reaching as possible. (Let not your imagination stop you!)

The engine that we're working with is a powerful one, and let me tell you; though it's graphical fidelity may not be the greatest and most up-to-date out there, the greater understanding I am continually gaining of the game's code, combined with the knowledge and skills of several other dedicated individuals that I have seen here in JEDI, leads me to be more and more convinced that all I have described above and so much more are possible. It'll take work, it'll take time, it'll take blood, sweat, and tears. I'm willing to go the distance to help build something incredible, in this, and every other aspect of RPMod, how about you?

[Tomoran]

I'm willing to go the distance to help build something incredible, in this, and every other aspect of RPMod, how about you?

You know I am.

We'll chat on the other side, there's a lot to discuss.

[Sasha Raven]

I highly doubt anyone would be against this.

[Aslyn Denethorn]

I'm not, but do you have any specific ideas as to implementation? What changes should be made?

[Sared Kilvan]

Specifically? I believe there is a much wider range of exotic weaponry that exists in the Star Wars universe that we could choose from, to say nothing at all of making up some of our own, so it's hard to pin it down to say "I'd like to see X, Y, and Z implemented". That's a process for later.

I primarily want to see if everyone is comfortable with scrapping virtually every weapon in the game and re-building them from the ground up. Sure, we'll have similar weapon types (pistol, rifle, sniper, etc.). What I want to avoid is the mindset of "Lets make a different kind of disruptor, golan, and concussion rifle" that leads to making a prettier model and weapon effect (like the effects package that we have right now), that is really just the same weapons mechanically with a new paint job.

[Aslyn Denethorn]

Hypothetically, I suspect everyone will say 'yes', but until there are more specific suggestions as to what these weapons will switch over to (do note there'd be a major modelling issue there) or what properties each of them should have (damage, range, rate of fire etc), our answers really won't be that useful. I'd say it's the difference between having a vote and voting on whether or not to have a vote.

[Amoné Fayden]

(This is going to be another TLDNR from me. Apologies in advance!)


It's a touchy subject, RP vs Gaming.

On one hand we are a Role Playing community and as such, agree to sacrifice our desire to FFA certain situations to remain humble to the setting.

On the other hand, we use JKA to RP. We don't sit on RP websites and Forums typing out everything we do.
We use JKA because it's a game and because there ARE gaming aspects we enjoy.

As such, I would be strongly, STRONGLY against dumbing down Weapons to the extent that it is simply not fun. Applying what we know of real life weaponry into Star Wars is not always good practice. The guns don't work the same way. They may be modeled and designed from Real World weapons, but it doesn't mean they function that way.
I agree that some weapons, especially those that have recoil, would not be 100% accurate but there should also be a huge dependency on the user's ability to aim. However, not all Star Wars weapons fire ballistics which changes our arguments on gun and projectile behaviour.

I would hate to see the gunning aspect of JKA go through filter after filter after filter down a path of devolution until we are left with unthreatening, pointless guns that serve no purpose other than cosmetics for mercs and to make crappy Jedi feel great about themselves because it's nigh-impossible to hit them.

If we reduce fire rates, reduce ammo sizes, reduce damage, reduce accuracy, add over-heating.. Guns will be no longer be a threat and you will have successfully removed any chance for a person to demonstrate natural skill at that side of the game.

It would be like dumbing down lightsabers by adding 3 second delays between swings, draining force points after every swing, stopping people from Jumping mid-swing and adding an auto-lock feature. It just wouldn't be fun and it undermines and craps on the people that are genuinely good at it and have devoted a lot of time to being good at it. "Balance" (Or "realism" as it's often called) is as big a noose as it is a goal and should be displayed through roleplay and player humility, not forced by game mechanics.
There'd be no room to be "better" because the game mechanics say "no" and forces everyone to be equal and average. It's the same way I feel about any changes to Lightsaber Combat and the proposed Class System.

As much as I dislike the example I'm about to use - Look at WoW.
Look at where it started with it's classes and it's functions and look where it's ended. It's been dumbed down so much over the years that it requires so little thought or player input to win. I'd hate for RPmod (and by extension JEDI) go the same way.

With all that said and done! (and off me chest!)

On a Positive note I am not adverse to some change with weapons and would be totally on board with assisting (skinning, discussions etc).
I actually remember mentioning to you once before about my thoughts on using 300 year old weapons, Sared. So I'm up for exploring new "versions" to fit more with the advancing technology. Lets just keep in mind that in an ancient Galaxy, 300 years isn't the same amount of time as say, 300 years would be to us here on Earth. Technology has it's limits.

I'd love to look down the lines of changing some weapon functions and attributes (mostly secondary-fire functions). There are some things that could use a change and I believe most will probably agree on it but I implore you (the community and project leaders that is) to avoid reducing everything to compensate for lack of knowledge or skill on a player's part.


I hate to sound so obstinate and I don't mean to so I apologize for that. I just feel strongly about it, is all. I'll help along the way if I can, more positively of course, but please lets be very, very careful about this.

End Vote: Hesitant Yes

[Sared Kilvan]

Not to sound dismissive, but while I think your concerns are valid, I also believe they are ill-placed. I was holding up some of the suggestions that had been given before as a precursor to an idea, "A B C could work, but I think we need to address X Y Z." Simple miss-communication.

I have no intention whatsoever in 'dumbing down' a single weapon, or making them remotely less threatening. What I'm looking at is essentially 'starting over', making equally threatening and powerful (if not more so, in some cases), and more versatile guns all-around. If we do a good enough job, the new guns shouldn't feel at all over or under-powered, just different.

Different in a way that is both suitable to a role-playing environment (what RPMod aims to create), and provides the opportunity for more engaging, interesting encounters; both from the perspective of the Jedi (as opposed to "hold up saber, block while setting broadsword to 9001, run up and choppy-chop" and/or pull spam approaches), as well as create fun, realistic game-play for gun-on-gun encounters as well.

Like so many times before, I think we both have a lot of the same opinions on this Amoné, we just need to hit the same wavelength to make sure we're talking on the same page.

[Amoné Fayden]

Absolutely!

I know you mentioned that you'd like to keep this poll seperate from the other thread but it's my knowledge of some of the comments made on the other thread that makes me defensive.

A lot of talk about making weapons crappier in areas that don't deserve it. It worried me.


But as for the weapon revamping, I'd be willing to explore it if it actually goes anywhere.
There are many unused weapons, like the Demp 2 for example, that could be doing with a change so that they are actually used. There's also the Bryar that is not much different from the DL-44 in usage that could be better made into something else.

I am, however interested in knowing how these would be changed. The last I heard, JKA's guns system was very contrary and changing the model/skins of weapons is as adventurous as it will let you be. Does anyone have any (solid) examples or occassions where Modders have successfully changed everything about guns including Primary and Secondary fire types etc?
(changing ammo and damage doesn't count as that's easily changed in the weapons.dat)

[Sared Kilvan]

There are a few weapon mods on JK2files that demonstrate the ability to do this, the problem is that the majority of them are, like you said, merely cosmetic. There's one or two I can track down, but I'm not in a position to do so at this moment. Will do when I get home. Off the top of my head, I believe Inryi Forge did one or two weapons that have adjusted/affected behavior. I can also think of a mod (again, it's on JK2files, just can't get there right now), that takes the vector calculation code from the bowcaster's secondary fire and turns Lightning into more or less a laser beam that bounces off of several surfaces before dissipating.

Not exactly the answer you were looking for, I know. Will get you more when I get home.

[Alkur Tekeil]

DERP... I mean DEMP gun needs to get replaced with a sonic blaster.

I don't see why it has to be a wholly mechanical change to the weapons, there is little to nothing that can be altered to improve upon.

[Herenai]

I would hate to see the gunning aspect of JKA go through filter after filter after filter down a path of devolution until we are left with unthreatening, pointless guns that serve no purpose other than cosmetics for mercs and to make crappy Jedi feel great about themselves because it's nigh-impossible to hit them.

If we reduce fire rates, reduce ammo sizes, reduce damage, reduce accuracy, add over-heating.. Guns will be no longer be a threat and you will have successfully removed any chance for a person to demonstrate natural skill at that side of the game.

I do agree with that. However my point of view won't please everyone. About the guns damages etc, I always wanted to see :

- More damage (Yes Jedi die because of the hits (unless you're Rash, then the blaster bolt would die)).
- Less accuracy, unless you're specialised (Sniper)
- If possible add an over heating to avoid MONSTERSPAM.

This would be great really.

As we're in "realism", then mines or the other bombs would make you rest in pieces, unless you protect yourself with a Force Shield/Barrier or whatever pleases you.
I've never seen a Jedi standing against hordes of blasters, being hit, and sayin': " It's okay guys, just a few holes".

About the weapon re-design, I support this idea my friends !

Well, I think I'm done for now

[Amoné Fayden]

The thing about that sort of realism however, is that nobody should be forced to kill their character off.

If we take realism to great lengths and a blaster shot, trip mine or frag grenade meant instant and garaunteed death, then we'd all be making up new characters after each mission.

Some realism needs to be sacrificed to maintain order and continuity.

But by all means, feel free to backhand people that take Monty Python's "Black Knight" approach to injury. Three frags and one rocket to the face is not something you brush off as if it never happened.

[Jenny Wrix]

Generally when our characters do in fact go down in missions where there's a probability to getting killed ICly, they cannot die for the sake of story, the player's character, and the player themselves. Good old plot armor.

As for the guns, things like reduced damage, spread while firing, walking/running addition to spread, poor accuracy and overheating are a bit too much in my opinion. Not every gun has to act like the "Bastard Gun".

I say just slap some recoil on there and call it a day.

[Tomoran]

As far as Jedi being infinitely better than gunners.

classes.dat

You know, if it ever happens.