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"Squeeze on by/in!"
"Squeeze on by/in!"
The command "/rphologram normal" not only produces cool shaders on whatever model you happen to be using to make you look like a hologram, but it also makes your character only collide with world geometry.
Now recently, I've used this command to bypass the game's extreme "minimum proximity" limit or two squeeze past players in cramped doorways which SHOULD be possible in life (provided they arn't Reelo) but unfortunately will cause you to treadmill in game because of our invisible, yet solid auras.
Now what would be cool is a similar command that does not sport the hologram shader. Could also be used for Force Ghosts or hallucinations or whatever if you want to get that artsy.
A bit lame for a first suggestion but whatevez. The only problem I could see is it being 'sploited in combat. But I'm sure I'm angelic enough not to do that.
Now recently, I've used this command to bypass the game's extreme "minimum proximity" limit or two squeeze past players in cramped doorways which SHOULD be possible in life (provided they arn't Reelo) but unfortunately will cause you to treadmill in game because of our invisible, yet solid auras.
Now what would be cool is a similar command that does not sport the hologram shader. Could also be used for Force Ghosts or hallucinations or whatever if you want to get that artsy.
A bit lame for a first suggestion but whatevez. The only problem I could see is it being 'sploited in combat. But I'm sure I'm angelic enough not to do that.
| Oberon Pentari |
There are a lot of things I do with rphologram normal that have nothing to do with being a hologram.
1) I use it to bypass creates I have laid in front of a door to barricade it without having to move objects I set for a mission/simulation
2) It makes NPCs stop targetting me, or at least make them unable to hurt me.
3) While I am mind tricked, it keeps people from running around frantically trying to grip me when I am just trying to avoid them (the fact that they can grip something they are not aware of notwithstanding)
4) Force hallucinations/visions RP (I am not really here, but not a hologram, etc.)
So while I like the idea of the functionality of the skill without the hologram shader, I have to wonder if it would require admin access or if this isn't just one of those "too bad you don't have noclip trololol" moments.
I like it! More options means more things we can do.
1) I use it to bypass creates I have laid in front of a door to barricade it without having to move objects I set for a mission/simulation
2) It makes NPCs stop targetting me, or at least make them unable to hurt me.
3) While I am mind tricked, it keeps people from running around frantically trying to grip me when I am just trying to avoid them (the fact that they can grip something they are not aware of notwithstanding)
4) Force hallucinations/visions RP (I am not really here, but not a hologram, etc.)
So while I like the idea of the functionality of the skill without the hologram shader, I have to wonder if it would require admin access or if this isn't just one of those "too bad you don't have noclip trololol" moments.
I like it! More options means more things we can do.
If you never want to spar, just get Storm 4-5, keeps all the crazies away.
It's kind of like a nerfed noclip... I could just see being annoyed at someone trolling with it in combat haha.
| Oberon Pentari |
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Sared Kilvan
- Lost One
- Posts: 1035
- Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:11 am
- Location: Pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain.
This may or may not open up a very old can of worms for some folks...
I think a lot of this is due to the way ghoul2 hitbox collisions are detected and calculated. It's the same reason you can fire near the base of a model's feet (even when they are using sense) and still hit them. The same math is also inconsistent when it calculates lightsaber collisions, which is why you'll sometimes see the blade pass through another player without contact on what would have normally been a solid strike.
All in all, I believe the culprit, as well as the solution, lies in two key features.
The first is the way the hitbox is drawn and projected is the culprit here, but that's also assuming that we are even using hitboxes, instead of ghoul2 collision detection. I'm unsure what measures would need to be taken to re-work this feature, but I know for sure that the MovieBattles team approached it. I also have a sneaking suspicion that the culprit lies in a section of the SP code (which we don't have/can't change yet).
The second lies in ghoul2's behavior. A question for someone with rcon: is g_saberghoul2collision currently turned on? I know that this was a feature that wasn't added until much later on in Jedi Outcast, and I'm not sure if anything exists to adjust that now in JA.
I also need some confirmation on this, but on the G2 header file, it has definitions for ENTITY_WIDTH and MODEL_WIDTH, and several others. This is pure speculation, but I'd theorize that therein lies another clue to the issue at hand; it's entirely possible that the general model 'presence' (where the player is at any given point) is a much larger box that envelopes the smaller model and hitboxes. Again, just theory, but it may also deserve some looking into.
If anyone wants to help with this, go play some SP and see how lightsaber combat feels, and focus on how the strikes connect and feel (note, the movement and many other things will feel odd). Also, pay attention to things like how close your player model can get to other NPC player models, and other world models (models, not sculpted world geometry). For comparison, I'd also recommend firing up Jedi Outcast (un-patched if you've got it, then patched for comparison) as well. It's own collision detection saw many work-overs, and several changes were made in both the SP and MP environments.
::gasps for air::
Long post is long. Honestly, wasn't writing that much.
TL;DR : Blame ghoul2, everyone else does.
I think a lot of this is due to the way ghoul2 hitbox collisions are detected and calculated. It's the same reason you can fire near the base of a model's feet (even when they are using sense) and still hit them. The same math is also inconsistent when it calculates lightsaber collisions, which is why you'll sometimes see the blade pass through another player without contact on what would have normally been a solid strike.
All in all, I believe the culprit, as well as the solution, lies in two key features.
The first is the way the hitbox is drawn and projected is the culprit here, but that's also assuming that we are even using hitboxes, instead of ghoul2 collision detection. I'm unsure what measures would need to be taken to re-work this feature, but I know for sure that the MovieBattles team approached it. I also have a sneaking suspicion that the culprit lies in a section of the SP code (which we don't have/can't change yet).
The second lies in ghoul2's behavior. A question for someone with rcon: is g_saberghoul2collision currently turned on? I know that this was a feature that wasn't added until much later on in Jedi Outcast, and I'm not sure if anything exists to adjust that now in JA.
I also need some confirmation on this, but on the G2 header file, it has definitions for ENTITY_WIDTH and MODEL_WIDTH, and several others. This is pure speculation, but I'd theorize that therein lies another clue to the issue at hand; it's entirely possible that the general model 'presence' (where the player is at any given point) is a much larger box that envelopes the smaller model and hitboxes. Again, just theory, but it may also deserve some looking into.
If anyone wants to help with this, go play some SP and see how lightsaber combat feels, and focus on how the strikes connect and feel (note, the movement and many other things will feel odd). Also, pay attention to things like how close your player model can get to other NPC player models, and other world models (models, not sculpted world geometry). For comparison, I'd also recommend firing up Jedi Outcast (un-patched if you've got it, then patched for comparison) as well. It's own collision detection saw many work-overs, and several changes were made in both the SP and MP environments.
::gasps for air::
Long post is long. Honestly, wasn't writing that much.
TL;DR : Blame ghoul2, everyone else does.
Last edited by Sared Kilvan on Sat Nov 12, 2011 11:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Delmi N'jork
- Jedi Master
- Posts: 3929
- Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 11:53 pm
- Location: Duneeden
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Just today I had to use hologram to approach Tergos and Sasha's ship to slip under the wing, while it was only a brief period of looking like a transmission... it'd still be a lot more awesome to have none o' that. So the ONLY thing that needs to be removed is the hologram shader, and a new command to access it.
Many uses. Even used the hologram to hug Rash Loist. Can you believe it?
But yeah I definitely think it'd be a great addition.
Many uses. Even used the hologram to hug Rash Loist. Can you believe it?
But yeah I definitely think it'd be a great addition.
| Oberon Pentari |
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Sared Kilvan
- Lost One
- Posts: 1035
- Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:11 am
- Location: Pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain.
The thing about rphologram is that it has a clearly visible effect. While I agree the idea is a clever way around the model bounding boxes, combine that idea with the often dubious hit detection and you're creating a very large potential for abuse.
It could work if there is a way for the player to be affected by weapons, punches, kicks, grabs and force powers while ignoring other bounding boxes. Apart from that being nigh impossible, it's also like saying that a hammer made of air is a great tool, as long as you don't have to hit anything with it.
Currently, it's a convenience issue; the cause of it is much deeper and I don't believe it's going to be fixable by giving players the rough equivalent of a nodraw button.
It could work if there is a way for the player to be affected by weapons, punches, kicks, grabs and force powers while ignoring other bounding boxes. Apart from that being nigh impossible, it's also like saying that a hammer made of air is a great tool, as long as you don't have to hit anything with it.
Currently, it's a convenience issue; the cause of it is much deeper and I don't believe it's going to be fixable by giving players the rough equivalent of a nodraw button.
Yes it's just as exploitable as rphologram... but are you saying the obvious usage of rphologram is the only thing preventing players from exploiting it?
| Oberon Pentari |
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Sared Kilvan
- Lost One
- Posts: 1035
- Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:11 am
- Location: Pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain.
Not in the least. Like I said, if/when it is used in such a capacity, it's obvious.
After giving it some thought, I think if the command automatically switched you to melee and/or made the player unable to do anything but walk/run, or use it again/turn it off for say, ten seconds, or some other kind of similarly heavy restriction then it would reduce the potential for abuse, but it would still be there.
After giving it some thought, I think if the command automatically switched you to melee and/or made the player unable to do anything but walk/run, or use it again/turn it off for say, ten seconds, or some other kind of similarly heavy restriction then it would reduce the potential for abuse, but it would still be there.
Honestly it's not so much about that as it is breaking the bounding box around players and objects. Allowing for either more intimate or intimidating action or whatever, or more realistic dealing with npc vehicle ships, among other things.
| Oberon Pentari |
The original request (/rphologram without the hologram shader) is already implemented in the /nonsolid command, but it is cheat/god-only. In the next version of RPMod, it will become a regular admin command, and so will /noclip and /notarget; all 3 can be used on yourself as well as other players. To prevent abuse, these commands may be restricted to mission directors.
FYI, collision detection with the world and other players/npcs doesn't use Ghoul2 at all, but simple bounding boxes (you can see them by setting rpc_debugShowBBox to 1). These bounding boxes are scaled according to your model scale.
Ghoul2 collision detection is used for ligthsabers and missiles/bolts (both d_saberGhoul2Collision and d_projectileGhoul2Collision are enabled on our servers). Try shooting between the legs of another player: the bolt should not hit him, as would be the case if pure bounding box collision was used. However, G2 collision is only computed after doing standard box collision detection, so any part of the player that appears outside his box is ignored. Shrinking the box to allow closer interaction may result in less accurate hit detection.
I do not believe G2 collision detection is broken... generally, the reason why SP feels much more accurate than MP is due to network latency and prediction done on the client side. When you hit a player on your screen, his actual position as known by the server might be a step or two ahead of what you see, hence why you do not score exactly as you thought.
Some "unlagged" Q3 mods have somehow solved this by rolling back the server's internal state to what it was when you fired your weapon (using your ping), before doing collision detection. However for JKA it's more complicated to apply this technique, since only the concussion alt fire and the disruptor use an instantaneous "trace" (no delay between firing and hitting the target); other weapons use moving missiles. And I don't really know how it could work with lightsaber moves, as sabers continuously do damage when ignited (you don't "fire" them once as you do with a disruptor)...
FYI, collision detection with the world and other players/npcs doesn't use Ghoul2 at all, but simple bounding boxes (you can see them by setting rpc_debugShowBBox to 1). These bounding boxes are scaled according to your model scale.
Ghoul2 collision detection is used for ligthsabers and missiles/bolts (both d_saberGhoul2Collision and d_projectileGhoul2Collision are enabled on our servers). Try shooting between the legs of another player: the bolt should not hit him, as would be the case if pure bounding box collision was used. However, G2 collision is only computed after doing standard box collision detection, so any part of the player that appears outside his box is ignored. Shrinking the box to allow closer interaction may result in less accurate hit detection.
I do not believe G2 collision detection is broken... generally, the reason why SP feels much more accurate than MP is due to network latency and prediction done on the client side. When you hit a player on your screen, his actual position as known by the server might be a step or two ahead of what you see, hence why you do not score exactly as you thought.
Some "unlagged" Q3 mods have somehow solved this by rolling back the server's internal state to what it was when you fired your weapon (using your ping), before doing collision detection. However for JKA it's more complicated to apply this technique, since only the concussion alt fire and the disruptor use an instantaneous "trace" (no delay between firing and hitting the target); other weapons use moving missiles. And I don't really know how it could work with lightsaber moves, as sabers continuously do damage when ignited (you don't "fire" them once as you do with a disruptor)...
