Class Balance (Proposal 3 Page 10, Updated 288.22)

[Tomoran]

Here's a little math I did this morning:

Level / HP & Shields Together / Force Pool / Total / Difference:

Sentinel

1 / 100 / 50 / 150 / 0
2 / 104 / 55 / 159 / +9
3 / 108 / 60 / 168 / +9
4 / 112 / 64 / 176 / +8
5 / 116 / 68 / 184 / +8
6 / 122 / 71 / 193 / +9
7 / 128 / 74 / 202 / +9
8 / 134 / 76 / 210 / +8
9 / 140 / 78 / 218 / +8
10 / 150 / 80 / 230 / +12
11 / 170 / 92 / 262 / +32
12 / 204 / 106 / 310 / +48
13 / 252 / 122 / 374 / +64
14 / 300 / 138 / 438 / +64
15 / 320 / 150 / 470 / +32
16 / 324 / 153 / 477 / +7
17 / 328 / 156 / 484 / +7
18 / 334 / 160 / 494 / +10
19 / 340 / 164 / 504 / +10
20 / 348 / 169 / 517 / +13
21 / 360 / 176 / 536 / +19
22 / 370 / 182 / 552 / +16
23 / 382 / 189 / 571 / +19
24 / 392 / 195 / 587 / +17
25 / 400 / 200 / 600 / +13

Guardian

1 / 100 / 50 / 150 / 0
2 / 104 / 55 / 159 / +9
3 / 108 / 60 / 168 / +9
4 / 112 / 64 / 176 / +8
5 / 116 / 68 / 184 / +8
6 / 122 / 71 / 193 / +9
7 / 128 / 74 / 202 / +9
8 / 134 / 76 / 210 / +8
9 / 140 / 78 / 218 / +8
10 / 150 / 80 / 230 / +12
11 / 190 / 83 / 273 / +43
12 / 240 / 87 / 327 / +54
13 / 300 / 92 / 392 / +65
14 / 360 / 97 / 457 / +65
15 / 400 / 100 / 500 / +43
16 / 406 / 100 / 506 / +6
17 / 412 / 100 / 512 / +6
18 / 420 / 100 / 520 / +8
19 / 428 / 100 / 528 / +8
20 / 438 / 100 / 538 / +10
21 / 450 / 100 / 550 / +12
22 / 464 / 100 / 564 / +14
23 / 478 / 100 / 578 / +14
24 / 490 / 100 / 590 / +12
25 / 500 / 100 / 600 / +10

Consular

1 / 100 / 50 / 150 / 0
2 / 104 / 55 / 159 / +9
3 / 108 / 60 / 168 / +9
4 / 112 / 64 / 176 / +8
5 / 116 / 68 / 184 / +8
6 / 122 / 71 / 193 / +9
7 / 128 / 74 / 202 / +9
8 / 134 / 76 / 210 / +8
9 / 140 / 78 / 218 / +8
10 / 150 / 80 / 230 / +12
11 / 161 / 96 / 257 / +27
12 / 180 / 116 / 296 / +39
13 / 204 / 140 / 344 / +48
14 / 228 / 164 / 392 / +48
15 / 240 / 180 / 420 / +28
16 / 242 / 182 / 424 / +4
17 / 246 / 185 / 431 / +7
18 / 250 / 190 / 440 / +9
19 / 256 / 196 / 452 / +12
20 / 262 / 204 / 466 / +14
21 / 270 / 215 / 485 / +19
22 / 280 / 227 / 507 / +22
23 / 288 / 236 / 524 / +17
24 / 294 / 243 / 537 / +13
25 / 300 / 250 / 550 / +13

Not factored into this is Force Regeneration Rate, which maxes out at 1ms. By at least level 21 Guardians have this stat maxed. By level 15 Sentinels have this stat maxed. By level 12 Consulars have this stat maxed.

So I wonder, other than not having access to level 5 powers early (which are seldom worth the point above 4 and have a myriad of their own balance issues I will be addressing in a future post) I can't see any reason one would go anything that isn't Sentinel unless they want the sheer HP of a guardian.

Of course, having a TON of Force MIGHT help but using any power halts your force regeneration rate anyway and Sentinels have just as good of Force Regen and slightly less total force than Consulars. Is it necessary for us to be so squishy?

If you use mind trick, sense, absorb, protect, rage, speed or throw your force regen is halted. Why can't we regen through using these powers if we have sufficient force regeneration rate? Is it too hard on the engine? Then why not give us a larger pool?

I'd say it's clear that the numbers need to be looked at, regardless. All the classes are IDENTICAL up to Level 10. Is this intended? To show that the diversion of training doesn't start until such a time? How about we just ask students to specialize at level 10, then? Or rather, whether they want the best stats or to have a few options open in their template that they can't access until they're a Knight. I understand we're still working in beta here but I don't see many people making noise about this and I figure I might as well. I full well understand this is a roleplay mod but having gross differences between characters will just mean everybody picks sentinel and then just "roleplays" being something else to avoid the crap stats of the others.

EDIT: When you view the stats without shields factored in (though I don't see why you wouldn't) then Consulars and Sentinels have comparable totals but Guardians are far below the others in terms of raw numbers due to their force plateauing early in their training. However, Guardians do have the capacity to overshield and get way, way higher durability than intended (as most do at certain levels) as early as level 16. 203 hp / 300 shields takes forever to whittle down, and that's fine with me, I think Guardians need some love, too, frankly. I mean, there's clear variance in the classes but not enough to really justify deviating from the center, so to speak.

[Imil C. Ucindus]

Yes the classes are very unrealistic. I'd rather our max health, and force regen be randomized then everyone turning out the same depending on class though.

[Tomoran]

I'd considered a progression system where the amount of hp/force/etc. you gain is based on what powers you take, a la Morrowind or Oblivion style levelling, but right now I want to express that what exists is ... flawed and then start from there on how to fix it.

[Nira'kalen'nuruodo]

I'd also like to add that by level 25 (which is, in essence, JEDI's "endgame"), you've practically got enough XP to buy every power. Most of us are at a stage where we have to pick and choose our templates carefully, but XP eventually begins to pile up and any notion of specialisation is no longer enforced by game mechanics.

Complaints aside, levelling systems are not easy to create. I'm toying around with a system of my own and the more I think about it, the more problems I'm encountering.

[Olim Adasca]

Alright, perhaps seen from my view...I do not really see an issue with this math, numbers are fun, but what's the catch?

[Ametha Tasia]

I dislike the current system, alternatives are welcome from where I'm standing.

[Tomoran]

Alright, perhaps seen from my view...I do not really see an issue with this math, numbers are fun, but what's the catch?

I see ... so level 19, A Sentinel has 190 health and 164 Force. A Guardian has 214 hp and 100 Force. A Consular has 128 hp and 196 Force. The guardian can reach 300 shields/214 hp, but lacks the Force to do much if they intend to use sense or speed or, goodness, protect or heal.

Meanwhile, A Sentinel has 30 less Force than a Consular, regens it at the same rate, and has 62 more hp (or over 100 more survivability with shields factored in) and I guess ... there's no issue with that?

EDIT: I'll work on some alternatives if I get enough of a positive response of the notion that a change should be made.

[Zeak Dystiny]

I definitely see some of the ridiculous issues present. I think some change needs to be made.

[Cynthia]

I dislike this current system. I do not see why anybody would go consular for OOC reasons because consulars get all of the force powers later then sentinel and the force pools and regen are too similar. I think the Guardians are fine, but I think the consulars should be able to unlock force powers earlier, and larger pools for higher levels.

[Ametha Tasia]

Exactly. Going consular would either imply that you'd have to utilize ridiculous Force Spam, or just give up sparring/combat missions. That and, a sentinel is a MUCH better alternative at the moment, and quite frankly, doesn't even remotely reflect the class's intention.

[Cynthia]

doesn't even remotely reflect the class's intention.

Exactly

[Alkur Tekeil]

I understand the necessity for balancing the different classes for the sake of game mechanics. But when a player is only focusing on how much HP/Shields, Force energy, regen and what powers they have access to at what levels, I question why they're here.

I don't believe that is the case with JEDI, or where this suggestion is coming from. But I would like to point out we don't have a team of developers working on the mod, as if it is some MMORPG.

There's been suggestions that completely do away with classes (the species system, the assets and burdens system).
I just don't think anyone wants to deal with the sheer numbers and the progression of levels and balance them out.

But frankly, I don't believe there is a way to balance the class system and maintain a balanced game play.

[Eugen Darkrider]

There's been suggestions that completely do away with classes (the species system, the assets and burdens system).
I just don't think anyone wants to deal with the sheer numbers and the progression of levels and balance them out.

But frankly, I don't believe there is a way to balance the class system and maintain a balanced game play.

[Zeak Dystiny]

There is one way, I think. Ditch the HP/Shield difference and possibly the Force difference, then have the classes based solely on what powers one gets opened to them and at what levels. While this happens your hp/shield will all increase at the same rate as others. From there you could also debate how much Force and the regen each side gets - more Force for Guardians to resemble extra stamina, less regen, or the other way around, while Consular gets the opposite. Currently it's quite unbalanced and resembles the KOTOR system to an extreme.

[Olim Adasca]

Next to this, a Consular does not have to go Force spam to survive a mission, nor does he have to give up spars. It brings different forms of combat which people will find themselves adapting to. Just my opinion, but I guess if people are that upset about it.